Why our bosses encourage camping

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Blaqk, May 13, 2012.

  1. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Credit also goes to NiteShade who ranted with me.


    Tartarus

    Front armor means you can't just turn and fire on him. His movespeed bonus on nightmare is uncapped. There's a replay on the old forum of us hiding in the old cheese hole as a 20 ms Tartarus warps all over the damn place.


    Erebos 2

    He blinds you and his movespeed is way too high. 2.6 ms is higher than any marine who calls Easy Company their natural habitat, and by forcing marines to sprint, you're forcing them to waste energy to be used against him.


    Demeter

    Cocoons and Line of Sight stun. Enough said.


    Cronus

    Huggers.


    Cerberus

    Every damn thing about him, including the gas sequence camera.


    Perses

    Huggers, high movespeed, multi-attack tentacles, and the Firewave which forces you to stand still and take it like a man. God help you if Agrons/Titans/Parasites barrel down on you during Firewave.


    Deimos

    Spawns minions that heal him. Yay!


    Nazara

    ADC X-1. Outruns and outguns you.


    Trollpoptosis

    Huggers and 3 movespeed. You also have to have some sort of open wound, which means going against everything NOTD stands for by intentionally getting hurt.


    Athena

    Still has her infinite range stun and crazy mob backup. Yay!

    [hr]

    A favorite "balance" technique of ours seems to be adding huggers.

    Why?
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Not sure.

    Though as I just posted in the other topic, you're not going to have really memorable boss fights necessarily long as it's more or less variations on common spawn conditions. Mindlessly coming at the marines and chewing on them.

    Huggers in and of themselves just favors elevation camping anyway. So yes, it's counter productive.
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I'm not saying get rid of unique boss mechanics (get rid of Apoptosis' mechanic... do it). I'm just saying some of them need to be capped (hello Tartarus) or have their hugger spawns removed (including cocoons).
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Me either, just to be clear. Though Troll Huggers don't help the situation. And some mechanics can be looked at and altered.
  5. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Maybe remove and/or making the hugger/cocoon invul and timed life (maybe 5-8 secs) so team needs to move. Thoughts?
  6. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    That could be a Bad Time(r) for whoever is closest to Demeter when he dies and does that 10 cocoon explosion thing.
  7. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I cannot approve of Invulnerable Huggers or Cocoons. Cocoons would need a decent power nerf if you plan to make them invulnerable and with a set duration, because then getting chowed on by the Cocoon would out-right be a death-sentence. If they expired after a certain time, and remained vulnerable, I wouldn't mind it as much, but Invulnerability means it will instant-gib unless nerfed.
  8. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    The main issue I see with most bosses is that they can be easily defeated by superior strategy ALONE (aka camping). Almost no boss requires any particular tactic, some have slight variation, but most boil down to: Unload every dps ability on him with no regard to anything else, and delay the bosses own atttacks (tanks/disables) long enough to just blow him away. The spawns present in most of these fights encourage this, since the longer any fight drags, the spawns will slowly but surely overwhelm the team. In some cases the SPAWNS are more dangerous then the boss itself (Perses/Hades sort of/Queen/Erebos 1 and 2. Either more bosses need to be multi stage with no spawns present, or have different abilites that require better team coordination. The best example of this is ironically the probably easiest boss: Zues and Leto.

    Edit: Ill post some ideas to make the boss fights require better team coordination/tactics in a second.
    [hr]
    Disclaimer: No idea if this or any subsequent ideas can easily be coded.

    Have tart gain the damage reducing armor from the angle (front/back to keep it simple) that he has taken over 50% damage from. This means a team will have to coordinate to do one of 2 things

    A) Balence damage to tart from both sides such that the armor never kicks in

    B) DPS him hard from one direction, then switch him around to dps the other half of him.

    Still perfectly doable for a decent team but means it requires more thought then "Tank Taunt left, Opcomm flame him down right"
  9. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • Community Leader

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    With a good team, Cronus seems to be the easiest boss since people could stun it whenever it tried to use the laser (and at the same time still takes extra damage for a period of time), how about adding a skill for Cronus so it cannot be stunned?
  10. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Not really a fan of that idea, it tosses multiple skills out the window (Vengenace, Shock Artillary, Mono), all of which are core skills of those classes (pretty much everyone uses 1 of those heavily in alpha).

    I was more thinking that cronus should have his lasers be unstoppable, even if hes stunned, forcing the team to move around them.
  11. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Removing Hugger from Cronus boss fight. He will no longer be more vulnerable when firing lasers.

    Athena no longer has stun since many patches ago.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I wouldn't mind the vulnerable during Laser. it's a period where your DPS is necessarily lowered because unless you have The Mark, you're constantly on the move. You can't just sit in one spot and ramp up OpsComm style. What I do think might need to be changed is instead of stuns shutting off Lasers, what it does instead is pause the lasers. They will still be up but they won't be sweeping. Stun over, they start sweeping again.

    Course, since the Huggers are removed that option won't possibly troll players as much. Though I can still imagine the RAGE that would happen if someone got hugged and there was a stun dropped right as the laser crossed on top of him.

    Long as I'm thinking of Cromo the Purple Dinosaur:

    Play up his rage and uncontrolled accelerated mutation. For one, Dr. Asshat should run and cower someplace that Cromo typically wouldn't go instead of just sitting there in the open. That small high ground near the two turrets in Lab sounds nice. Thus also when Dr. Gunjan is put down, he can pop out and say something like "Thank the Ancient Japanese Gods that you stopped him!" and generally sound at least something like a victim instead of sitting there like an obvious evil commander.

    Second, make him randomly Rage. Instead of just following whatever is closest, allowing the Flamer to Lolkite him out, he randomly rages. Every 20 seconds or so you get a "(Playernamehere) has enraged Cromo!" and he starts aggroing them specifically.

    Third, Controlled Reactionary Mutation:

    Allow Cromo to enter different "modes", however unlike Erebos Mark I and II, this isn't just on a random timer. It is entirely as an aggressive reaction by the mutation virus to what players do.

    Examples:

    Iron Mountain: When Cromo is stunned he gains 50% Damage Reduction for 10 seconds.
    Sacred Ground: When Cromo is the target of a spell/ability and is on Creep he gains a 10% Attack Speed, Move Speed, and Damage buff for 10 seconds.
    Thermal Bloom: When Cromo is Slowed he gains Thermal Bloom. After 2 seconds an energy field centered on him (radius 5) appears and deals 30 Damage/Sec, effects all targets (Fliers, Creep Tumors, Marines, Pets, random creeps, Infestors, whatever) for 10 seconds.

    Abilities such as that. Would at least make the fight last a bit longer and have some more interesting moments.
  13. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Slightly misleading thread title.

    Quite a few of those listed do not encourage *camping* they encourage *tanking*

    Tartarus is tanked, not camped. Doesn't matter where you fight him as long as someone hold its attention.

    Cronus, Erebos, Perses, Deimos, Nazara, Hades, IVAX the same.

    This leaves:

    Demeter, Apoptosis, Athena, Queen which have to be camped (i.e. high ground)

    Since NOTD:SC2 differs from AM is that tanking is the way instead of endless kiting, we only really need to look at changing Demeter, Apop, Athena and Queen. Leave the other stuff alone.

    Really, revert the Cronus change. Crous is just fine. Maybe make him not take quite as much damage during lasers (about 1 multiple less, he takes 5x currently, make it 4x) and he's golden.

    Edit:
    Your post in dev news about Seth and Zeus/Leto isn't quite true in that the ambient spawns there actually factor in a lot. Like really a lot. If you are unlucky and get an agron or two with devourers or bane trains it will hurt badly.
    For Zeus/Leto, doing it in Chapter 2/3 is a lot harder given the high ambient spawns of stalkers, zoombies etc and Apollo creeps seeping out.
  14. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    They encourage, non-kiting.

    Every boss encourages non-kiting in some way shape or form. Period.
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    The classes in NOTD:SC2 are not balanced around constant kiting like they were in AM.
    Unless you rebalance all the classes to make tanking incredibly hard / impossible, the playstyles will continue as they are.

    And that kin of mammoth effort would be more useful for a new incarnation of NOTD, not revamping an existing one.

    There are people who hate tanking/non kiting and there are those who don't mind it / like it. Changing from one extreme to the other at this late stage is counter productive.
  16. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    The only boss we have that does encourage kiting is GotB, and that's just a blatant "if you get close you die, don't worry about how long it takes you to beat him as long as you stay safe."
  17. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Bullshit. Straight bullshit.

    Even if it were the truth, If the map is truly designed around not kiting, then change the damn name. The current mentality of tank and camp everything and anything is opposite every other NOTD ever, Period. Using the NOTD name without actually being a NOTD true to form is nothing more than deception.

    Regardless, as it stands, every single skull fucking boss, and almost every major horde is designed from the ground up to discourage kiting. If it isnt boss Powers that discourage kiting, its almost always either ridiculous movespeed or hugger spam. As for hordes, camping and just spamming skills trumps kiting every time. Theres literally no reason to kite anything, unless you are severally outgunned or alone.
  18. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Which is almost irrelevant, seeing as like 80%+ of the players in Starcraft 2 either A) Never even played Warcraft 3 to begin with or B) This is their first NotD and have no idea what AM is/was or C) Do not care. For me, NotD means "Cooperate, Survive, Win". What form/strategy/style of tactics that happens to require, doesn't mean much (to me).
  19. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    My issue isn't with how you do anything, it's with what options players have available to them. In most of those fights, you're limited in what you can do to the point where your only option is to hope your tank doesn't die (Apoptosis, Cerberus, etc).
  20. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Agreed, that too many bosses pidgeonhole teams into one style of tactic. Although I imagine it is slightly difficult to balance a boss such that any style of tactics (camp/tank/kite) are all equallly effective. Usually one of those tactics is found to be superior to the others, and chosen every time.

    I would like more kiting for bosses, but kiting bosses chews into one valuable thing most teams don't have: time. If aiming for speed runs, any prolonged kiting endangers that heavily. To make prolonged kiting viable (not toss 1 disable, mass dps, win inside 5-10 seconds), would have to either have to remove entire encounters (set piece hordes, bosses, missions), or make current encounters go much faster (weaker mobs, less mobs, more unique mobs).

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