Venom & Antivenom vs Heal Beam

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by rockz, May 14, 2017.

  1. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    Venom lasts 216 seconds in nightmare, and does a total of 86 HP damage over that 216 seconds. The negative regen is ~0.4 per second, which is less than max life regen of most characters with max endurance. Recruit is 57 damage over 144 seconds, Veteran is 72 damage over 180 seconds. Energy transfer is separate from venom, and is a flat -0.5 per second, and gives 0.1 or 0.2 energy per second, depending on level.

    If you want to heal regular venom damage, it costs a total of 0.45 * 86 = 38 energy to heal that damage. Antivenom costs 15 energy, or healing costs 38 energy. Including the 10 HP from antivenom, Heal beam level 3 requires 43.2 energy and 13 seconds to heal 96 damage. Surgical laser level 3 requires 40 energy and 8 seconds to heal 80 damage.

    If you have more than one stack of venom, it is significantly more energy efficient to cure the venom than to use heal beam level 3 to keep the person alive. Heal beam level 3 can keep someone with 17 stacks of venom from losing any life.

    If you are severely hurting for energy, then leaving someone who is losing a small amount of life or still gaining life. Note that each stack of venom hurts your overall walking speed and make you more susceptible to getting hit again. Most characters will survive 4 stacks of venom, but it will take them a very long time to fully regain that health back. If you are planning on using heal beam to accelerate that process, it would have been more efficient to prevent that damage in the first place with antivenom. Unless you know for a fact that someone only has 1 stack of venom, it's much more efficient to remove that stack of damage.

    Endurance adds 0.043 HP regen per stack, 0.387 HP regen at 9 stacks. This is enough to make even the lowest regen characters (engineer and commando at 0.121) still gain life with 1 venom stack.

    I don't know who started this war against using antivenom, but it's time to stop. If you are medic, please do the efficient thing and cure the venom when people are losing HP from venom, unless you are really low on energy, in which case you should heal venom that loses HP of over 1/3 seconds (unless you have supply station).

    Additionally, I believe that heal beam and surgical are relatively poor choices to heal players. Surgical has 0.5 energy/HP, and heal beam has 0.45 energy/hp. In terms of utility, surgical wins every time, except when healing less than 40 HP. For comparison, Nano weave heals 0.21 energy/hp, and restore is 0.42 energy/hp on a single target except when healing less than 70 HP, and the amount is drastically reduced when multiple targets are involved, especially considering the bonus energy and self heal. Antivenom, when curing venom, heals at 0.15 energy/hp over the full 216 seconds.
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
  2. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Who cares. What's it matter? Anyone who says it's more efficient to healbeam a venomed up bitch, with no other pressing concerns, like a cutting mando and (notice the AND) a demo shield being beaten, is a shit medic. Stop letting them be a medic, period, problem solved. If their life is dropping fast and you're a fa with t3 and you don't cure the ails you're doing it fucking wrong anyway.
  3. stanK

    stanK Member

    Surgical doesn't beat heal3 in terms of energy efficiency. If u heal a lot, the seemingly tiny advantage adds up.
    However, both surgical and heal become mostly irrelevant after weave, like you pointed out.
  4. ozzy

    ozzy Member

    heal beam disables auto attacks so you will level slower
  5. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I will need to try 1 heal/3 SL in a game again. On paper 3 SL is much better. Medics don't run out of energy healing people, they run out of energy by shielding people, since hits are a thing.

    Also note that the difference in SL/heal is 2 energy and 5.7 seconds.
  6. stanK

    stanK Member

    What exactly are you calculating here?
  7. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    Surgical laser level 3 heals 40 HP instantly for 20 energy with a 4 second cooldown. Heal level 3 heals 40 HP over 5.7 seconds for 18 energy.

    I am not convinced that the energy efficiency of heal beam is enough to make me want to use it over surgical, which has a very slow cooldown at level 1.

    In any case, the point of this thread was to dispel the myth that it's more energy efficient to heal through venom when that's absolutely incorrect. Additionally, you cure cripple, so why not cure venom, which does the same thing as cripple just to a lesser extent?
  8. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

  9. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Agreed.

    This guy forgets to factor energy regeneration.
  10. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    These guys forget to make a point.
  11. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Okay. You simply fail to read it seems. Or haven't done your homework. Or don't care to. I'll go digging through months of posts and bring up relevant posts

    Just

    For

    You.

    I'm nowhere near done with this post.

    More edits to come.


    This argument has been beaten to fucking death.

    Healbeam was superior when it was broken at level 1. It's still superior because you oom less.

    Anyone who says it's better to heal through ailments rather than remove them is dumber than a box of rocks, and doesn't need to medic again, period.

    Done Editing.

    http://notdstarcraft.com/threads/medic-max-sl-heal-nightmare.2755/page-3

    Go do your homework on SL vs heal
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  12. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    This is patently untrue, and you're part of the problem. Please stop spreading lies about Nano Weave. Nano weave level 1 heals at .33 energy/HP. Level 3 Heal beam heals at .45 energy/HP. Weave level 1 is more efficient than heal beam, and level 2 is faster than heal beam. As long as you heal 55 HP, nano weave is more efficient than Heal beam.

    Your numbers agree with mine. 716 health for 322 energy or 640 health for 320 energy. That's 2 SLs, and I'm saying this is not an enormous difference.

    We can only make progress in the vacuum of theory.

    Getting restore/weave is important.

    The same could be said about someone who tries to compare 2 skills without controlling for time.
  13. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Weave is a useless garbage filler talent that serves zero purpose. You wanna know what makes healbeam so much better?

    Spending one energy on a misclick rather than whatever the fuck it is now for weave, and having to wait that long ass cooldown on it.

    If you're really that goddamn caught up in SL vs heal that you take weave, take 3/3 2 shield skip weave and grab resto, like I have BEEN doing for the past 3 years with no complaints from anyone I heal period.
  14. ozzy

    ozzy Member

    in the past using only heal beam in early game was good

    but in this update and alpha company the level 3 surgical laser is good for mobility and protecting the team in motion

    there are not energy shortages if you do not fully heal the team with surgical laser so they can heal from regeneration or supply station

    nano shield costs the most energy per second because many players will be in a bad place

    the best time to use heal beam is during a reload

    heal beam can make new players stand in a bad position for a long time

    level 3 heal beam is good on mindlinked players because they will spread damage

    surgical laser is good in alpha company and heal beam is good in other campaigns
  15. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    So the reason you don't like SL is because you misclick a lot? That should have been a point you made earlier. I tend to not have this issue.

    Weave is 8 second cooldown, max stack 2, 25 energy, which is over twice as efficient as heal, which coincidentally means that if you cast it twice by accident, you'll still come out ahead of heal beam. If you're going to make a case for something (SL vs Heal vs weave) then at least make sure the case is consistent. Heal beam's energy efficiency is far behind restore and weave, so saying "heal is bottomline the most efficient single target heal there is" is factually incorrect without making an argument for the cast method.
  16. JohnyM

    JohnyM Member

    This is pretty good insight, ozzy.

    I'll give reasons why i go with 3-1 -> 2-0 -> 2-2 -> 1

    I pick heal-beam cause i wont missclick, i can keep 3-4 stacked players alive (early game) long enough without any problems. I dont heal to 100% with it, i just switch targets. Sometimes those 8 seconds can make a difference.

    Mobility issues? Im usually up on front, and keep everyone healed, but for newbies this might be the case. On the other hand, they are also more likely to mc SL/Wave.

    I pick wave over SL (both are pretty insignificant imo) cause its fastest and strongest single target heal and i sometimes use it when someone is rly low on health, even after i hit lvl 9.

    Once you hit lvl 9 -> everything in this amazing thread is unimportant.
  17. stanK

    stanK Member

    This thread is pretty much done. Rocks made a clear point that its about curing ailments, once we start flaming about sl vs heal its just pointless.

    So does anyone actually have numbers against "lets not use healbeam to heal through 20 stacks of venom"?
  18. ArchaicHonor

    ArchaicHonor New Member

    At OP's PM request, Necroing this thread to take opposing position with numbers. Source links are generally wiki unless otherwise stated.

    TL DR: AV is 2x worse than SL in terms of OW HP/s loss and 6x worse for movespeed reduction (Cripple versus Venom speed reduction). For 75% of the cost (15 versus 20)

    I have numbers and I can prove it two ways, with numbers and with back of the number calculations.


    Rockz, your premise is incorrect. I'm going to state some blindly obvious statements in a chain of reasoning

    1. Medic competency is based on one and only one objective: Keep everyone alive

    2. People die ONLY when their HP reaches 0 (barring infection)

    3. Medic can only heal if she has energy in the tank to cast skills
    Therefore, medic's objective is to keep people's HP out of zero (and ideally above insta-burst zone) as long as possible while keeping as much energy in the tank as long as possible. Maximizing Energy Availability is NOT the same as maximizing Energy Efficiency. That leads me to the First Principle: Maximize Energy Availability


    Let me make another point absolutely clear. Other than Restore (not applicable early game and only from other FA medics) and Supply Station, your only source of medic energy is your (*buffed or unbuffed) energy regeneration.

    Back of Napkin Proof

    Lets suppose someone is crippled and has open wounds. OW is 1 HP/s and Cripple is -30% movespeed penalty. that means that OW is 1/.3984 = 2.51x more HP drain and 30/5 = 6x movespeed penalty. So this condition is much more deadly than a venom stack. What does it cost to heal this 2x deadly ailment? 2x more? 3x more? Nope. It costs 5 energy more at 20 energy for SL and 10 more for weave** which is 50% to 100% more efficient then any Tier 1 Heal skill and requires no channeling. This leads me to Principle 2: Level quickly, Level 5 is your big power spike. So in other words, the AV skill is just a crappier version of SL at more-or-less the same cost that stacks higher.


    Point of AV is to waste energy in exchange for movespeed. If you are moving, KEEP RUNNING DON'T KITE WHILE VENOMED. A competent team does not leave teammates behind. If you are in a holdout there is literally no reason to move.

    Therefore, in principle, there is no reason to use energy on av: inferior heals, movespeed is can be worked around.


    And when you get Resto, there is almost no reason to use anything else to keep team healthy barring a FUBAR or boss fight, almost any amount of stacks can be kept at full via SS and Resto and gives the whole team energy at 35 energy cost regenerated every 35/1.3396 = 26s while staying at full energy. Any other energy use delays Restore cycle so you need a good reason to use it and maintain Maximum Energy Availability.


    Numbers Proof, Assume Character has no HP regeneration

    Venom is a -5% movespeed, -.3984 HP/S debuff for 3 minutes, max stack 15.Source

    Antivenom is a 15 energy skill on a 5s cd Source

    Medic regeneration is 1.1992 Energy/s + 9 *0.0156 = 1.3396 energy/s with full intelligence stat. Arc adds 0.3281 energy/s. I assume you have intelligence stat maxed out because that's often the first stat you max and if you're running medic in a serious game without intelligence stat, what are you doing?

    [pulling regeneration numbers from wiki which I know aren't quite correct, awaiting editor numbers]

    Medic Heal Beam numbers are 3, 5, 7 HP/s at a cost of 1.5, 2.375, 3.15 energy/s at an efficiency of 2, 2.1, 2.2 HP/energy Source: Stank's post, he looked into code


    1 venom stack drains 3 HP every 3/.3984 = 7.53s. That means, in principle, you can zap healbeam level 1 every 7s for 1s and always keep full energy. You could do this forever and remain at full energy in the 7s cycle and venom will heal itself for free no matter the stacks after 3 minutes. So in terms of energy availability, that's the difference between 230/245 = 93.88% energy availability versus 99% energy availability or 6ish% energy availability difference between healbeam 1 (worst case scenario) and AV. This difference is additive per venom stack you cure. In other words, you are healing HP you *might* need to care about 3 minutes into the future and neglecting your ability to heal a potential immediate life threatning HP need somewhere else. And in first AC fight this is not a hypothetical: normal fight without taunt and some backliners taking hits consistently *will* drain you nearly dry by the end so you literally need to make everything count because people will die otherwise. Should they be if they were theoretically gud enough? No, but they did and you got to clean up after them.


    With max stack of venom, it takes 15*15 = 225 energy and 5*15 = 75s to heal a fully venomed marine. In that time, you will have generated 100 energy. So you are at 245-225+100= 120 energy assuming you spent no energy on life support during. In my experience, you are typically left more or less empty, 50 or below. At 50 energy, you are nearly useless to your team and must spend (245-50)/1.3396s = 145s to regain full operational effectiveness *assuming no additional healing*. Even at 120 energy, you've still given up half your operational effectiveness. With healbeam and sprinting on the move, I rarely need to go below 10%, 20% at worst and the numbers are even better once you've hit the lvl 5 level power spike and are using weave, rarely below 10%. And you will be healing more if you have a team that just ate para stacks. And what if you're about to do the first AC holdout? This gap is energy availability is exacerbated by multiple AV patients. AVing 2 marines? Forget it. you'll OOE yourself and watch them die due to HP reaching 0. So really, this is a psychological problem, people think that they are losing HP and feel ignored so they rage. Sorry sweetie, your feelings have no place in this, your job is to keep tanking/dps and my job is to keep your HP out of 0. End of story.


    In my experience, I have not needed to go below 90% energy, keeping 2 AVed marines on HealBeam life support, stutterstepping and bringing their life levels slowly up to safe levels and keeping an eyes on them and their position. And the numbers bear this out. The numbers are even better for weave which is 1.5x-2x more efficient depending on weave 1 or weave 2 and requires no channeling. The way to think of it is that in the time that it takes weave to wear off, you've regained 20 out of 25 energy you used to case it. So keeping someone on life support until it wears off is still really cheap. And weave 1 neutralizes max AV stacks.


    **Even in case of stacked OWs, you likely have lost significant HP due to Agrons so a case can be made for weave even then. 25 energy and by the time weave wears off in 15s, you have regenerated 20.094 energy or cost you 5 energy availability. Same argument for 4 max stack OWs: 80 energy at once which is immediate 80/245 32.7% operational effectiveness penalty or sustained 25 energy netting -5 energy per 15s cycle for 4 minutes. And Weave 1 heals for 5HP/s and max Venom stacks drain .3984*15=5.976 HP/s so Weave 1 almost nullifies it and Weave 2 heals for 7HP/s so nets you HP over the duration. This is assuming that the marine has 0 innate HP regen too which is of course not true. As a sidenote, medkit heals 125 HP over 10s or is a free weave 2 [Wiki numbers seem to be outdated]


    *Buffs included are Energy Transfer, Intelligence Stat, Arc and Battery

    I reserve the right to ninja edit this wall of text to make it more readable, clean up citations, etc.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  19. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    Irrelevant.

    1. 4. Medic can only heal if she isn't hugged or stunned.
    5. People also die when they take massive damage that they weren't expecting from a surprise source (beasting/baneling, stinger, parasites).

    Having 50%-100% HP mitigates these issues, as well as reduces the chances for other ailments to occur, such as cripple or open wounds. Taking a hit with under 50% HP has a 100% chance of applying a new stack of venom. Open Wounds, Blind, and Short circuit won't proc at over 90% HP. Cripple won't proc at over 80% HP. Madness won't proc at over 75% HP.

    Decreased movespeed slows down game time if you are looking to do speed, and it's not as safe if you want to fight a boss.

    These look correct to me. I put most of them in the wiki anyway.

    You don't have to heal venom fully. Each weave essentially removes 1 venom stack, as venom deals 86 damage and weave heals 75 or 120 damage. If you only use weave level 1 to heal a max stack of venom, it takes 15*25 = 375 energy and 15*15 = 225 s to heal a fully venomed marine. In that time you will have generated 301 energy. So you are at 245-375+301 = 171 energy.

    Let's compare this to a combination: If you use 10 weaves and 5 AV, it takes 10*25 + 5*15 = 325 energy and 5*5 = 25s to finish "healing" venom. In 25 seconds, you'll have used all 5 AVs and 1 weave, leaving you at 245-75-25+33 = 178 energy at 25 seconds in. Now you have only 10 venoms left at a much more manageable 3.984 HP loss over 193 seconds or 768 damage. Under your logic, now you can just heal through the damage with weave, right? Now to fully heal a unit it takes 10*25 = 250 energy and 10*19=190 seconds. In that time you will have generated 255 energy. So you are at 178-250+255 = 183 energy at 215 seconds in. In addition, they can now move 20% faster, and last significantly longer without support from the medic, either due to medic being out of energy from shielding others/keeping others alive. All this while being significantly more energy efficient and having more available energy for use on the rest of the team.

    The cutoff point for Antivenom being less efficient than weave 1 is after 130 seconds, Heal 3 is 160 seconds, and weave 2 is 62 seconds.

    15 stacks of venom will do more damage per second than 5 stacks of OWs, but OW lasts 288 seconds on nightmare. Cripple lasts 360 seconds on nightmare.

    I don't understand why you won't use a more efficient form of healing that frees up your ability to heal other people. You only have 1 nano weave, and it only works on an 8 second cooldown. I would make the argument that since you claim weave is so efficient, being forced to babysit one or two people with weave greatly reduces your healing capability and use it on other players. Additionally, if you have weave 2, you will regenerate energy faster than you heal, so by combining this with antivenom, you make the player faster, safer, and you lose effectively no energy since you'll regenerate the 40 energy in 30 seconds.

    Look, you don't have to heal all venom stacks, but if you have full energy or close to it, it makes more sense to use your pool of energy than to keep some back "just in case". It's much safer and it's more efficient.
  20. stanK

    stanK Member

    This is quite a large and hard to follow post for a dead thread :)

    The original point/request that rockz made is medics should NOT heal beam venomed players. Use AV.
    Then the thread degraded into a usual sl vs heal debate.
    Archaic - your post is to highlight that sl also cures OW?

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