unlock tree less

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by hdlll, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. hdlll

    hdlll New Member

    More choices bring with much fun, balance of the different choice income.

    Layer 2 unlock 4, Layer 2 unlock 8, and the talent trees A and B are separated.
    Level 9 heroes, first unlock a tree Layer 2, the remaining choice continue to unlock the layer 3, or select another Tier 1 talent tree skills.

    I said, unlock points it takes too much, why not reduce it?
    Layer 2 unlock 3,Layer 3 unlock 6. So you will be able to choose among the four heroes AB talent tree Layer 2 skills 4.

    There is also a problem, why must have a talent tree? It is a good game design. But NOTD talent tree is one of only 5 skill tree, even lower than the grass tree ...
    Too simple talent tree is difficult to bring the players to think about the fun of build, and build attempt.

    Could each hero's talent trees A and B merge? Layer 1 skills 4 to select, Layer 2 skills 4, Layer 1 skills 2. This model change few, but the choice of the players as much a lot.
    2 Tier 3 may need some restrictions but the impact is not large.
    1 although very powerful but not enough magic consumption.
    2 Some skills among a bonus, the Tier 3 is not necessarily the best.

    After the opening up of the talent tree, Rifleman not select this talent Improved Focus Fire, the role of this talent is too low. This is the genius of the design is unbalanced, unlock the talent tree to balance this issue is unreasonable.
  2. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    Maybe in notd2, as said many times, no major game change overhall will happen.

    Also, are you basing this from the NA version of notd or the chinese version? Because the chinese version is NOT the official one.
  3. hdlll

    hdlll New Member

    Talent tree design dates back to Diablo 2.
    Unlock requirements, skills among a bonus.
    Unlock demand used to limit the basic set of build, need only 1 invest will be able to unlock the next order of skills to choose. Unlock spent little, because it's just a basic limit.
    Skills among a bonus, which is the main means of build. In order to get the maximum damage in a skill, all the points you will put into it incentive. Costly and Useful.
    Skills to unlock a hero level restrictions limit the choice of hero upgrade, forcing the hero to try more options.

    Diablo 2 each character has 3 trees, so wonderful.
    So I say a post to save the hero level.

    Diablo 3 skills pool to replace the skill tree, no limits, this is not more interesting, what?
    [hr]
    What time go on NOTD2. Have a plan?

    I play Chinese server NOTD only, it has some different locations but the main is consistent.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    It's an illusion I think to say that Skill Pools are better than Skill Trees. They do different things.

    A skill tree promotes a sense of Growth and Accomplishment. You are building up several skills to an ultimate specialization which changes the game in a meaningful way more than any one skill normally would.

    A skill pool is about customization. It is the a la carte option of character growth. It feels less rewarding typically, and due to skills not having requirements typically forces you to have less effective skills, since it needs to be balanced in case you want to get, using NOTD skills as an example: Nuclear Strike at level one rather than Surgical Strike, getting Field Nexus instead of Field Probes. Thus you basically end up having to tone down skills so they are all tier 1 skills. Or you have a "Strictly Better" Skill Option which is so much better that no one will NOT pick it regardless of playstyle or skill, which is also bad design choices. Or you can replicate the "high tier" skills by having them item based in such a way that you can only find the item giving the skill/option late in the game. Though that also has it's own problems, see the old Gravity Gun and the fact that it was the subject of countless balance patches and cheese fixes.

    Then you propose something like putting an artificial Talent Point cap on these a la carte skill choices, which if to be meaningful would have to be at least 1/2 or 1/3 your level, if not more severe. Considering you'd have to tone down skills, leaving you with nothing but tier 1 skills to start with, this would leave you considerably weaker balance wise than characters currently are now.

    Unless ranking up skills gave illogical upgrades to it. For example your Demo gets I'm Your Father leveled up another skill point and somehow it turns into Time to Die and he no longer has I'm Your Father, again to use NOTD skills as the basis of the example. In which case you'd have a "WTF?" progression that doesn't make sense. And you'd be removing an ability from their tool kit to do what a skill tree already does without removing abilities from the player.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Skill pools can have level caps on them, and the "skill pool" style of leveling (also known as the "hero system") is a much better method in my opinion. Skills don't necessarily have to be stronger or weaker because they can be obtained first, they just have to have different effects.

    For instance, because Grenades are a Tier 2 for the Rifleman, they do not deal friendly fire. However, if they were choosable at Level 1, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd deal friendly fire to counteract the Rifleman leveling much faster as a result. OSOK, by comparison, could only be chosen every 3 levels rather than every 2 or 1.

    While I wish I could cram more abilities into the units, the bottom line is that we've already got a system that works with characters featuring tons of abilities (the poor Medic can get up to six with just one tree!). NOTD2 will feature Variant Tier 3s to expand the character customization by a significant amount, but that is some time in the future.
  6. hdlll

    hdlll New Member

    Skills pool of skills is one, but some common skills, some outbreak skills, and some first aid skills.
    Consumption/CD/release of the ways to control them.

    Do not discuss the skills pool.
    I just hope that a little more NOTD skills selection, unlock spend less.
    [hr]
    Fast move, Fast reload, Teammate, Knife can be changed to a hero unique.
    So that the people is not comprehensive and requires a team.

    The cease-fire can be deleted because you can remove the weapons.
  7. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    The key to skill design is to make sure no skill is MECHANICALLY progressive.

    In Diablo 2, many skills were ignored, and the skill trees (IMO) were flawed because too many skills were mechanically progressive. The preequistes served as nothing but filler most of the time.

    An example of a GOOD skill tree progression from Diablo 2 is the Necromance Bone Tree. Teeth, Bone Spear and Bone Spirit do DIFFERENT things mechanically. Teeth will wipe out enmies on a wide front. Spear murders stuff in corridors. Spirity is perfect for evasive/fast moving single targets. You can NOT subsititute one for the other in terms of effectiveness.

    An example of a BAD skill tree is Sorceress, all trees. Firebolt to Fireball is the most painfully obvious one. Fireball does EXACTLY what firebolt does and more. Bolt hits one target, and does damage, casted at range. Fireball does aoe, damage, at range. Moreover the damage scaling is such that level 20 Firebolt (maxed under normal conditions) = level 6 Fireball. With such numbers, NO one in their right mind would take firebolt over fireball, ever.

    Having prerequisite skills for others for the most part are a waste of time, the D2 developers when they did TL2 recognized this and removed them. It is often better to make the selection of skills tied to something unrelated to skills (in TL2 case, stat levels or player levels controls it now).

    NotD is and has been very good in this regard, virtually no skill can be directly compared to another. It is almost impossible to say Skill A is STRICTLY better then Skill B. Could NotD flatten the skill trees out by removing pre requisites? Almost certainly. Is it a good idea? Difficult to say, most trees today have flexibility in being leveled up, and allowing people to hold and do skill dumps at the end may lead to poor choices. Moreover, the tree system was balanced with being able to go only 1 tree. Allowing people to mix and match tree segments, effectively making it one large tree, could lead to some very imbalanced situations. A simple exmaple would be rifleman. I could take all his damage related skills along with saline and be effectively invincible (Saline/Weapon Prof/Lust/Repulse/Crit/Rapid Fire).

    This is a matter that would have to be decided at the birth of a game, it affects EVERYTHING, since as a RPG like game, classes serve as the foundation of balance.
  8. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    This is how I feel about:
    Reflexes
    heartbeat sensor level 2
    Righteousness
    The entire left skill tree for flamer
    Scope
    Saline
    etc...
  9. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    The problem with reflexes is that evasion encourages bad behavior (getting hit) and move speed has its limits (great for scouting, useless while with team).

    HBS level 2 is an example of the reverse, no mechanical progression, but no differentiation, and insufficient numerical progression to justify getting it.

    Scope was resolved by making it an innate.

    Saline is not mechanically progressive, nothing in the game does anything like it. Its issue is that the underlying assumption of the skill is A) You are a poor player enough to get hit and B) You lack a medic or have a relatively unskilled one, which relegates it to a skill for poor players with poor team coordination, which really only exists in public games.
  10. Time

    Time New Member

    I actually enjoy the skill tree in NOTD b/c there a ton of lv 1 skills that I think look awesome. That being said now I feel dumb for always picking reflexes and saline... they always seemed so cool -_-
  11. Osaze

    Osaze Well-Known Member

    Don't feel dumb, it comes down to playstyle choices :)

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