The Pathfinder: Design decisions and balance concerns

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So I've gotten a lot of rumblings recently (and in general since he was implemented) about the Pathfinder being OP. I originally disregarded the complaints because it was a new class and new is different and so on and so forth. However, they persisted, and so I did some investigating, and roughly 90% of the hardcore NA vets think that the Pathfinder is just fine. I also played Pathfinder constantly in the various campaigns to test his effectiveness, and came to the same conclusion.

    However, this time, I'm going to do something different. Instead of ignoring the complaints as people who don't understand the design or who are just looking to irritate me (I get a lot of the latter, more than I'd like to admit, mostly because I take my job very seriously and its very easy to bother me with false or silly balance concerns), I'm going to open up this topic. Members are welcome to state what they think is unbalanced so I can justify the design decisions that I made. You are free to post said questions and concerns in the threas or PM them to me if you wish to remain anonymous for whatever reason.

    All that said, have at it, folks.
  2. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Fix the bugs, that is all.
  3. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I think it's the Flamethrower(Or WeaponTech) Effect, more than actual OPness myself. What I'm talking about here is people I see occasionally that tell me how OP the Flamethrower is, totally dominating the game. I then find out later on that most of their experience with the Flamethrower (Or WeaponTech), is via Randoming in Newbie Mode, and their experience is based on that. The Flamethrower dominates in Newbie Mode, on either tree, as the short ranged high firepower, high tankability is VERY suited to Easy Company, particularly in Newbie Mode where things like the lack of endurance on the Order Flamer (He can't tank all day, at all), isn't noticed because the fight ends relatively quickly.

    My experience has been that people telling me the Pathfinder is completely OP and Broken, are people who randomed a PF in Newbie Mode. No duh it breaks it open, when you get the Pistolwhipper who can just passively wipe out 3 targets a shot in most hordes and spam up attack speed. Or where a single jump is guaranteed to kill 90% of the enemies in any given wave, where of course in such a situation it is a game breaker. Not to mention typically the presence of a taunting tank typically to cover your ass during jumps and such.
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    keep invaders from automatically maxing out the rest of his tree. Besides that he's completely fine.
  5. Lightning
    • Donator

    Lightning Member

    i dont think it op. randoming a pathfinder in recruit mode in EC is obviously op. dont nerf it cuz of one mode liek you do to ALL the other stuff
  6. ForeRunner

    ForeRunner Well-Known Member

    Arcturus pretty much said it all. other than that work out the bugs (and maybe the assault jumps twitchyness) and all should be well
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I personally don't think this should be discussed just yet. It's still prone to accidents due to the bugs.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    That's a bug, actually. It's supposed to be 3 goto 4/2 goto 3, not setto 4/setto 3.

    You yourself complained about its OPness recently, though. Separate thread, but it still happened.

    The damage is intentional. He's throwing himself at the enemy as a grenade. The damage has to be worth it.

    The shield dependent survival is also intentional. He has to rely on his regen, if he takes too many hits, he can't heal quickly with kits or bandages, and any ailments he gets are pretty much GG. He's incredibly fragile once you get past the shields and he actually got one of the lowest total hitpoint counts (total being shields + health), on par with the Commando, the Recon, the Psi Ops, and the Forward Observer, and he doesn't have the luxury of being hitpoint based to where he can sustain himself with healing items. The only way that he can "heal" is by walking it off, having a Medic drop Nanoshield on him, have the Reaper use Protect on him, or have the Engineer Repair him, and the latter is hardly applicable because the Pathfinder replaces the Engineer in Sec Team.

    He has a high end energy regeneration because I designed for that. In the case of Rocketeer's Assault Jumps, 15 * 5 is 75, and his base energy is 85. Without factoring in energy regen, that leaves him enough energy to sprint out of whatever situation he got himself into by using Assault Jump, or to back off and finish the combo with No Quarter.

    The high regen is also appropriate for Gunslinger. Fast Five costs 20 energy, has a duration of less than a second, and doesn't have an immediately noticeable impact unless you're fighting a boss and you can see the short damage spike. To be able to sustain Fast Five, the Pathfinder needs to be able to have that high regen. Shoot To Maim is also a factor, as it drains energy per shot. Granted, it is much more sustainable because of the Pistol's attack rate not being totally insane, but it turns off the Trick Shot effect, leaving the Pathfinder to make a choice between having multi-target damage and having single-target damage.

    There is a specific reason for every design decision that I made, and that's why I made this thread. People think that they are bad design decisions, and I want to point out that either that they are wrong or discuss the possibility that they are indeed bad design decisions and need to be fixed.
  9. Scar

    Scar New Member

    well i played it a few times in appolo (in nms too) as rocketeer (i dont like gunslinger much but thats my problem) and i find it very solid allround dps and crowd controller but requires to manage jumps which balance itself... the ability would be op as itself but the limit of 5 jumps at time with waiting time to regen other jumps+energy consumption and the design of apollo make this tree just fine, and no quarter is just the cherry on the cake to top it all, allways nice to have it blow it off on huge hordes/clear a path/severely dmg a boss

    as for ec... well name ONE class from random pool that doesnt obliterate EC :)

    p.s. there is nothing wrong with gunslinger... its just not enough suicidal class for me :D
  10. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    FO. It really doesn't. The nature of Easy Company doesn't really lend well to it. Air FO is overrated. Maybe back when you had your minis for 55/60 seconds, but now that it's on 30/60, no. And the Artillery FO doesn't play well to the Close Knife Fighting ranges that Easy Company is favored towards, and the more open, mobile nature of it.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Flamer minis wreck shit because it's three additional flamethrowers that you can throw at a problem and it's Easy Company. The Artillery strikes are useful if you don't have a nuker. But you're right, FO doesn't really tear apart Easy Co like the other classes do.
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Allow me to clarify. It's not the whole PF itself that I found OP. Just the Jump tree
    because unlike the PF's Assault Jump tree, I found the Gunslinger tree a tad underwhelming for Apollo. I haven't tried its current rendition yet with the implemented buffs though.

    The Jumper as I'd experienced is a tree that

    when with the team
    is like a close range stunning satchel with no friendly fire for quick stun neutralization and (usually) removal of incoming/troll spawning/too close for comfort enemies
    as well as completely shutdown eggs and larvae of any kind. It can also move slightly ahead of the team without much fear for his safety to stun, weaken (or more commonly) obliterate any in coming enemies or position himself beside the tank for holdouts to assist in stunning, weakening (usually) exterminating hostiles funneling into the team.

    against bosses,
    it's also a very good disabler. While it can stun a boss continuously using all 5 jumps in rapid succession, it's also an option to space the jumps to interrupt its attacks, give the team breathing room. Each time it does, the PF also does 450 + 50 damage per jump landing + burning damage. While that may not look much on the large Boss HP bars, it is considerable damage.

    The PF also has the option of not constantly staying with its team and is fully capable of surviving prolonged ramboing in its home storyline (Apollo),

    Unless you get yourself into a corner with a screen's worth of enemies blocking your way,
    the PF is capable of bypassing path blocking enemies using jump when cornered (or kill them with that same jump for 500 damage),
    stun targets (4 area of effect wide area)
    for better positioning and/or distancing (to prepare for another jump or to kite and regen the recently used jump or regen your shield if you got hit), able to get out of almost any danger situations (even huggers/stranglers if they aren't spaced apart and there are only 3 in Apollo B, stranglers from A come at a slow rate which are easy pickings) with its speed and moderated use of assault jumps,

    has a high hit tolerance due to shield based toughness which can be augmented up to 7 shield armor which regenerates at a rate of 1.75
    and will not really ever suffer from lack of energy (unless you decide to spam the jumps (15 energy each) continuously while holding Z (10 energy) to sprint during the whole time with its 1.2+0.7 energy regen per second) because there is no reason to do so.

    Provided the jumps don't derp as they sometimes do now of course

    Which are also a major factor for the PF being extremely popular in Survival mode for those farming the medal. It's very agile, durable (not in the 'tank everything way', but in a can take a hit and get away unscathed way), and high damage dealing unit.

    The only real dangers to a PF I see is when the player decides to expend the jumps completely leaving him without the jump which I believe is bad practice (but still able to sprint at high speeds to weave around targets) or it gets accidentally force pushed/mono-ed by its allies, troll huggers and standing still after initially getting hit.

    What makes it so different from the Stinger Wielding SubMM which in recent Apollo builds does what the PF is capable of in Rambo mode?
    The capacity to deal comparable amounts of damage (300 damage for stinger, 500 damage for jumps) without friendly fire to himself or expending ammo.
    If you space jumps well, I find that the reloads are quite similar to waiting for the jumps to replenish.

    My theory is that this all comes from the damage the Assault jumps are able to do while at the same time being able to stun.

    The stuns however are essential to the PF helping the team survive. The damage of 450 + 50 + Damage over time from burning (which can stack with each other), not so much.

    IIRC, the damage of 150 > 300 > 450 was chosen to give the talent a linear progression. Is 100 > 200 > 300 + 50 not viable?
  13. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Yea I pretty much agree with Lyanden here.
    I find the gunslinger balanced, slightly more powerful but that's Sec.

    The Rocketeer on the other hand just pwns everything. 1 Jump kills anything it hits except for bosses and Agrons. Anything else has under 520 some HP. Like AoE KMS, but less risky to be honest as you can't get killed midjump anymore.

    If you play the rocketeer correctly, there's just about 0 risk to your health/shields and you won't ever be running out of jumps unless you are spamming mindlessly, and even then you'll have around 2 extra jumps by the time you finish 5 jumps+NQ where NQ is used between 2 assault jumps.

    I realize your main argument is "he is using himself as a grenade" and "he's fragile", but now that he is completely invulnerable during jumps and has 90% evasion after jump PLUS 2 sec stun on anything that survived the jump, I would call that pretty damn immortal and risk free lest you jump at the edge of an infested rine mob and somehow miss the follow up jump - something that any experienced rocketeer would never do.

    He is also extremely effective vs bosses and can keep them stunlocked for the most part for the team to deal with the rest. The only boss you shouldn't be jumping is nazara as it is bugged to continue attacking after being stunned, but anything else is pretty easy killing.

    Your 2nd argument that he only has 85 energy is the other bone of contention for me. Let's face it, while you balance around the base energy pool, stats are simply an integral part of the game and just about everyone always maxes out intel. Personally I think you can't not factor it in for a class that isn't a base class. Sec requires 5k xp so you will have a large stat pool to spend on that - he is never really in danger of running out due to his insane regen with coolants, less so with intel stats.

    Reduce the damage on the basic jumps to not be AoE KMS and it will be just fine.

    350 dmg like Lyanden suggested kills anything short of slasher and devourer, but even those will die from the burning dot within 2 seconds or instantly if you have any ammo mods equipped. While not making a huge difference exactly, it would bring him into line damage wise (without changing his role in Sec much) yet not make him completely OP in other storylines when randomed, which is also a consideration.
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I've been testing it a lot. It's adequate.

    Yes, but in Apollo, how often does the Pathfinder get to do that? Holdout situations are nasty. Infested Marines are everywhere. He's great while the team is on the move, but if they sit still, his range is extremely limited.

    That is a good chunk of damage, yes, but it hardly compares to the other options that the team has available to them. For instance, OSOK. Assault Jump is good for damage, but it generally puts the Pathfinder in harm's way, either from his teammates or the boss in question. Positioning in NOTD is extremely important, and there HAS to be a tradeoff for putting yourself right next to an enemy (with the lowest total hitpoint count bracket in the game, no less).

    If a wave isn't spawning, ANYONE is capable of prolonged ramboing in Apollo. Pathy is just exceptionally good at that part because he's mobile burst damage, just like our friend the Sub Marksman (who you mention and compare to later).

    The jump is powerful, yes. I get it. It's powerful for a reason: Not only is it his only source of significant damage, he can't use it at range.

    And if that shield breaks he dies immediately. He has the dubious honor of being the only class with base hitpoints in the double digits.

    Pretty much entirely intentional considering that the dude makes a living throwing himself at enemies. That's not an easy thing to make use of. Yes, the Pathfinder is effective, but stupid Pathfinders get killed all the time. Smart ones do too, because stomping on your enemies is really fucking risky.

    Yep. That's because his design has synergy with Survival's playstyle: keep mobile and kill along the way. If you want other classes that are like this, I suggest looking into the Sub MM, the Opsmando, the Flamethrower, and the Rifleman.

    It doesn't matter how fast you run when the enemy has guns. Infested marines, like I mentioned before, are fucking everywhere in Apollo. The team dangers don't need to be explained, considering that Force Pushes, Monofilaments, Contamination fields, and other fun shit can and will get him killed if he's in the wrong place at the wrong time. I feel the need to bring up Nightmare Mode, where damn near everything charges at you. If you just so happen to miss two or three targets with an Assault Jump, they can and will be on top of you instantly. I've seen (and also done myself, as Niteshade can attest) Pathfinders using Assault Jump on a group of enemies, only to miss a handful and die quickly and brutally because the evasion rate didn't save them or ran out. Parasites are an especially potent foe against the Pathfinder, because they attack so incredibly rapidly and have such a low threat rating that you often don't notice them until your shields are gone and you've got 40 hitpoints left and 10 venom stacks.

    The fact that the SubMM can go invisible and also attack at range, making it infinitely more safe to use.

    I'm not enthused about the prospect of stomping into a mob only to have it immediately turn on me, burn through my evasion like nothing, and be killed if not severely injured by the time I'm able to make my way out of there.

    The damage is essential to keeping the Pathfinder relevant, considering how dangerous what he does is. I don't know about you, but I would not feel comfortable letting my teammates go out into the middle of things where multiple Friendly-Fire capable templates are being dropped on a regular basis unless it was really fucking worth it. As it turns out, dealing a lot of damage and saving the team's collective energy qualifies as "really fucking worth it".

    No. It's not. The damage is fine. There's a great deal of risk involved whenever the Rocketeer aims to do anything relevant. The reward has to be worth it.

    Assault Jump doesn't put you back, for one, and two, you couldn't be killed while you were "in transit" during KMS either.

    "If you play well with the risk vs. reward class, your risks will be lessened and your rewards will be increased."
    You have successfully deconstructed the rest of your own argument for me. I really hope you realize that.

    I see people fuck up the Rocketeer constantly.

    He is indeed effective against bosses, but he's stunning bosses in a storyline that has a tauntless tank. It takes high coordination and positioning skill on behalf of the team to avoid people getting killed.

    I 100% can avoid factoring that in, Ghost. You want to know why? Making a class require stat point allocation is bad balance practice. I'm going to aim for it to be useful without any bells or whistles or I'm not going to make it at all. Stat points are nice breathing room, yes, but that's all they've ever been, and that's all they're ever going to be.

    As mentioned, it's not nearly as safe as KMS, and the damage is not too much.

    His damage is "in line" with everyone else's. Assault Jump is the highest personal risk skill in NOTD, so it stands to reason that it be very high damage. Also, the "other storylines" thing? Anything on Nightmare he's fine for, and anything on Hardened/Veteran he's pretty decent, just like all of the other out-of-storyline randoms.
  15. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I see. I'm hoping to test it out myself in a bit.

    Take out threats that come in while moving/holding out? Fairly often. Gargs zooming in from outside the walls of fort. Worms coming out of the woodwork from which larvae come out of. Stalkers/Devourers coming down from the many holes from walls. Before Deimos (before infested rines come in). During Deimos for his eggs. During Seth when addons come in to mess with the stackers. On the way to Nazara. During Naz to get rid of anything that can be ADCed. During the Ivax sequence. Hold out before Apop. During Apop for hugs or things that get up the holdout while team is dealing with the boss. In transit to the Domes with the team.
    Assault jump is useful. Very useful and has uses and is used very often.

    The only really high infested rine count that can pose a serious threat to the PF is the short wave of them coming at the end of the pre-Deimos wave and the post-comtower activation (usually fort) holdout.

    And his range is only as limited as everyone's in hold out positions, determined by the gun he uses. A jumper is not necessarily a pisol holder.

    Osok is used only against a single target. Costs more energy. Has a longer cast time. Has a longer cast rate if used on each CD vs Assault jumping with moderation. Also does not stun which has more value when considering it can stun more than 1 target (Boss + any adds). It also takes the AssMM much much longer to recover from expending energy. Energy that it needs (like the PF) to get to safety (sprinting which is still kinda slow) and/or Monoing (easy to miss, easy to also hit unintended targets).

    A marksman's position, especially an Assassination Marksman's position in Apollo while firing his OSOKs is a lot more dangerous I think. Especially if you consider 1-2 hits on an MM by anything other than larvae will break through his shields and possibly inflict cripple, short circuit etc. A PF can withstand those. It can actually be argued that the only way a PF dies is if it gets slowed. It is immune to creep and already enjoys a much higher resistance to getting ailments by virtue of his 100 base shield.

    A PF positioned next to a boss is one that is positioned to something that is unable to retaliate immediately. The boss, during that stunned moment of 2 seconds, is as dangerous as a ghoul that is stunned with an assault's level1 stun.
    Given the speed with which a PF can get out of being right beside anything, is not that big a risk as is claimed.

    If perhaps things can unexpectedly shake of their stun while a PF is beside them, then yes the PF is taking a risk. Stuns however are reliable in their durations.

    That something un-burrows/spawns right beside the objects that were stunned however is a risk that everyone deals with at all times, whether they be beside a target or not. Because of these, I would argue that the PF is in no greater danger from troll spawns than anyone else standing anywhere. The PF is in fact equipped with a means to quickly dispatch of troll spawns.

    The Pathy is capable of prolonged ramboing EVEN WITH a wave spawning. I invite you to give it a shot. Most of the wave will go for the bulk of the team. Anything that tries to go after the PF will find themselves unable to catch up. The only time a PF will meet a target is if it runs into them or the PFs runs at them. At which point a simple jump stun 500 damage will take care of them. If still alive, either leave it or jump on it again after a suitable duration (I usually fire the 2nd jump after 4 secs of soft kiting for these instances).

    If the reason is the risk vs reward which I have been stating is not very risky at all (except now when the jump can misfire) then it is not a good enough reason.

    He cannot use it at range, yes. But if you're at that range from a target, there is little reason to engage that target. And you should not.
    Even without the improved sprint, the PF can keep himself safe.

    No one is arguing that the Jumper's jump is it's main source of damage (though it does also have No quarter which very few will use on stragglers. I personally would not either).

    Nor am I saying that the jump should not deal significant damage. 500 AOE damage per jump however is not just significant. It is too much.

    You cannot argue that if the shield breaks, he dies immediately. He does not. The shield breaking without the PF unable to do anything to retaliate is also a rare occurrence. Slashers and Titans (probably the only non boss enemies that can kill a PF at 0 shields in 1 hit) are both slow, and the slasher unable to charge. Titan can charge but it is even slower. Both are easily stunnable. Easy to run away from. Easy to soft-kite-jump-kill if you have the patience for the Titan. I personally do not have that patience and will stay away from soloing Titans regardless of my class.

    And I am saying it is not fine. 500 damage on an AOE with an even further added damage over time burn on all things hit (That can stack) is too much fire power. There will be little change in function and role of the PF it the Jump damage was toned down to 350.

    It will still stun and soften targets. But PFs will not be able to exterminate the high profile ones with the ease they have now.

    This humbling weakness will discourage the ramboing, not because it can no longer disable them (I fully desire for the PF to retain the stuns of 2 seconds) but because it can not KILL them without significant effort.

    The PF right now wants the firepower of the team.
    But it does not ALWAYS NEED it.

    Hence it's possible for them to not WANT to stay with the team and instead look for more things to do, because they can.

    With a lessened Jump damage, the PF will WANT to stay with the team because he will NEED them to finish off the big bad things.

    Experienced PFs can still go about to scout and "rambo" but not with the same impetous that they have now and will not be heroes. They will be spotters and softeners if need be. But they will not be "WrathFinders"

    I have never said it was a bad concept or that it does not have a role. It's just too much of a hero right now.

    Though because of the misfires, a stumbling hero I guess so no, do not touch it yet until that's been fixed.

    Regarding your replys to Ghost

    1. I was under the impression that Jump no longer allowed you to be killed mid transit. Is this not true?

    2. The reward is too much compared to the risk.

    3. I also see people fuck up with all classes consistently.
    And as with Ghost, I very rarely see PFs jumping into fested rines.

    4. Tauntless tank yes, but it is also a story line with enough disables to shutdown bosses completely. The PF adds to this as well. However I do not believe that Ghost's point is to remove the stun. His point (as is with mine) is that the Stun makes the risk reward ratio very much in favor of the reward and so the reward must be lessened

    In the case of infested marines, there is little sense in jumping into a mob that can shoot down stinger missiles and pose a threat to even AssTanks by inflicting venom stacks and their rapid fire.

    5. Comparing Assault Jump to a talent that was removed because it was gimicky/bad design and hence was removed but I shall bite.

    KMS takes out 1 target, is useless on heroics, has a long cooldown, and can also get you killed even if you did not miss your target (and miss you cannot).

    Assault Jump can take out a lot of enemies, is not useless on heroics, if not spammed like a madman will have a lot of mileage, Stuns targets, can get you killed but only if you missed some targets. And if you miss, you can jump again to try to kill them, stun them or get the evasion bonus again.

    Fairly easy to see that Assault Jump comes out on top.

    It might be (i'm not sure) on its way out, but Assault's Charge is higher in the risk tree. The GOTB can catch you midcharge and slice you in half before your stun is implemented. The DPS assault is also without a follow through to the charge and will have to lumber slowly (due to it having the same move speed as a chem) after. And that's a tier 3 talent.
  16. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    And to think... when Kith proposed the Pathfinder/Blackwater Mercenary all the bitching and moaning was about how OP the Pistol Whipping was going to be with nary a whisper about Jumps in sight.

    Just to give the perspective on this, how far Theory/Design and Reality tend to drift apart.

    I do know in Apollo Security Games if someone is going to get Slaughtered, it's almost always a Rocket Pathfinder first. Chem T3, Force Pushing, etc. It's just more prone for shit to go wrong (And I've seen it happen) due to the nature of the talent itself and the player mindsets where everyone who has AoE dumps it all on at the same time because they all see the same ideal opportunity.
  17. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Indeed. And so the risk is not coming from using the Talent (Assault Jump) but from your teammates and you wanting to be take that moment.
    That's everyone's error all around.

    That also factors into the fact that Rambo PFs experience a greater reward for risk per jump if they rambo.
    At times, it's even safer to jump while ramboing than when you are with the team which further can contribute to the Jumping Hero Rambo.
  18. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I'll use my own pretentious coloring!

    Well fuck me! You better get rid of Armageddon Charge too! It does over 500 damage with even further added damage over time burn on all the things is too much fire power!

    We should also get rid of OSOK! That's too much damage on one location! It's like assault jump on one target!

    We should also get rid of Tactical Nuke! It's like a big ass assault jump!

    We should get rid of Plasma Detonators! It's like assault jump with debuffs!

    We should get rid of Satchels! It's like assault jump for killing newbies!

    We should get rid of Compliance Nexus! It's like OSOK for killing high profile targets, but then it gives you even greater survivability afterwards!

    We should get rid of Repulse! It's like assault jump with stuns and super sprint!

    We should get rid of Faith! It's actually the same fucking thing as assault jump with a different way of balancing it.


    Your whole reply sounds like that. It really does. Assault Jump is fine. It's not imbalanced, you just don't like it for whatever reason.
  19. poor_newb

    poor_newb Member

    Assault jump is supposed to be "high risk high reward", but right now there is hardly any risk and the reward is too high.

    There is hardly any risk because the 90% evasion saves you most of the time even when you make really bad jumps, so the players go suicidal Rambo mode until they get unlucky with the evasion and die, it encourages bad play all around.

    The damage is waaaaayyyyyy too much for a tier 1, being able to do 450*5 AOE damage with no friendly fire at level 2 is clearly broken. I don't care about how "risky" it is, no one should be able to do this much AOE damage at literally the start of the game.
  20. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    well that was certainly uncalled for.

    I used the color to differentiate my reply from kith's posts as i personally had a hard time going to what i was composing and his reply to mine. was just trying to make it easier for him to read...

    just doing what the guy asked which was get opinions on what aspect and why I thought PF needed changing.

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