The K Report: Weapons

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Jun 22, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Pistol is fine. The short range and 1.5 damage reduced per point of armor is plenty to offset its high base damage. Also, I'd like to avoid making the M5 too specialized, because I'd prefer that the Rifle weapons be somewhat general purpose.
  2. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Range is generally not an issue from our play styles. There's just about nothing where I would prefer even an Assault Rifle and to some extent HMG to a Pistol.
    Considering that you can also lower armor using AP (personal) and skills (team), pistol performs extremely well.

    Even looking at more basic modes, pistol is generally better dps than GPR, M45 and Flamer (yes better than flamer, you read that right) for most purposes, especially with its new 100% damage splash mechanic.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Pistol isn't supposed to have perfect splash, and I wasn't aware that it did. That definitely needs to change, and I think that's the source of the problem.
  4. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I was told it is intended
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Something in my mind breaks when the Pistol is "supposed" to have perfect splash when the Heavy Machine Gun isn't. Christ.

    First post updated with more reasonable M5 armor penetration values so it's not totally worthless vs. bosses and the suggestion to remove the pistol's perfect splash nature, if not remove the splash entirely.
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Anyway,

    I was thinking a reducion of ~3 on pistol base damage, which isn't a lot, but would bring it more in line.

    For the M5, I know you are saying how it is the best weapon and what not, but really the only enemies it shines against are:
    Infested Marines, Titans, Erebos, Black Ops

    At the same time, it is utterly useless vs:
    Stalker, Agron, Large zombie, Seeker

    Which are a lot more numerous most of the time

    Outside of the 4 named enemies, I would use an Assault Rifle over a Pulse any day. And a pistol over both really.

    If you take away the bonus vs heroic, it becomes rather weak vs Titans and Erebos, meaning you really only want to use it for Black Ops and Infested Marines. And with poor splash, probably not even vs infested marines.

    M5 only looks good on paper, but in practice its actually a generally horrible weapon.
  7. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I propose reducing the attack speed on M5 by 3-5%. Overall, I don't observe that it's very overpowered in practice.

    For Pistol, I propose reducing the attack speed by 3-5% as well. Will give the intended effect of moderating the damage slightly and the slower pace will have a more pistol-y feel. From a development perspective, reduces the quantity of attack events which optimizes the game (I'm a big fan of less attack speed and higher damage).

    I've reduced L3's base damage from 220 to 200 (instead of a 100 damage reduction). The weapon needs more manual intervention to use and the reward should be proportionate to the effort.

    For Laser Rifle, I'm fine to reduce the splash from 0.5 to 0.2 and increase base damage from 10 to 12. The additional armor multiplier is a no go because the impact is too substantial.

    Any violent objections?
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    That's pretty much what I envisioned Ability. I'd kind of want to see the base damage of M5 go up by 1 though since its extremely niche at the moment. Happy for armor pen to get bumped from 0.3 to 0.4 or 0.5.

    I'd probably say yes to a small improvement in UA420's armor pen and changing the bonus vs structure on both GPR and UA420 to Mechanical as well.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The M5 is not overpowered, it is misguided. Why does a weapon that's geared toward light targets in damage bonuses have such high effectiveness against Hulks?

    Also, no, I am not okay with that change to the pistol. The damage and the attack rate are fine. Why does it have perfect splash? It does not need perfect splash. I actually question why it has splash damage at all, considering that it's the short range, but accurate weapon.
  10. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    +1
  11. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Arguably, if the Pistol has splash, the barret & sniper rifle should also have splash.

    Unless these pistols are damn weird and are like mini shotguns, they shouldn't have splash. I'm assuming the Gauss Pistol is similar to a handgun in the sense that it fires a single projectile at a target.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The only pistols that have spread projectiles are guns such as the Judge, and they have an effective range of 15 feet.

    The Pistol doesn't need splash, the Marksman rifle doesn't need splash, and the Barret could arguably have linear splash but it does so much goddamn damage and the Railgun is on the way that it doesn't need it. Yes, it's going to hurt the Pistol pretty bad, but it's going to address Ghost's concerns and also make early Apollo Sec much more difficult (something that's needed to happen for a while, IMO) and also nerf the Gunslinger Pathfinder (who has been a little facestompy recently).
  13. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    My concern isn't exactly the pistol splash, it is the general damage it deals per shot and the dps vs single targets.
    It outperforms just about everything else and is a light (not heavy) side arm
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Pistol is basically a short-range Marksman Rifle, with range traded for attack speed and armor penetration traded for a fast equip time. I'm elated that you have devolped strategies where you can use the weapon effectively, but that does not mean that it's overpowered. NOTD has many weapons, all good at specific things. It really does not bother me that the Pistol outperforms thhe HMG in some situations. The HMG is good because it's an effective answer to everything, but not necessarily the best answer every time. It leaves room for other weapons to shine, and that's how it should be. The pistol is fine other than the splash that has zero reason for existing.
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Its not just the HMG. It outperforms UA420 and M5 in nearly all situations as well. Ditto GPR.
    Other than range and extremely niche moments, there's no reason to use the other guns
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Except range is a huge factor, especially in NM where shit charges at you and you have to give many things a much wider berth when you're kiting. The more range you have, the earlier you can attack things safely, and that is a major tactical advantage, even moreso in horde situations (this goes double for airborne hordes, such as EC Muta, where if you don't have enough DPS your team gets clusterfucked).

    Also, of course the high damage, high accuracy weapon is going to excel in terms of damage vs. the ones that spray and pray. The Marksman rifle outperforms them as well. A single well-placed shot can do the work of thousands, as the saying goes. However, sometimes you need those thousand shots. Sometimes you need the splash, and sometimes you need the attack speed (for in the instance of abilities such as Blood Frenzy). Every weapon has its place, even now with the... interesting state of balance.

    Pistol is a bit powerful, yes, and for balance and thematic reasons, the splash needs to go. But it is not so powerful that there is no reason to use the other guns.
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Thing is, higher range only means first strike for a limited amount of time. As you kite, longer range (8+) weapons are generally no longer a factor as you are moving and shooting at the same time and you can only shoot as far as you can see and the ms difference.

    I play rifleman with pistol a lot in NM and have no problems getting silver star on a consistent basis even at the frontline of the team, because pistol damage will take out anything that comes my way before it reaches me. The exception are agrons (which you should be kiting anyhow and the odd hulk ball.

    In fact, I find it infinitely easier to not get hit using the pistol than with an automatic rifle simply because having even 2+ ghouls coming at you while you got say UA420 or Pulse equipped they will hit your shield at least once while pistol will kill them all. Same with stalker balls which don't charge, but pistol fares better vs these armored creeps than weapons designed to take out armored creeps.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    And your skill as a Rifleman allows you to get away with using a shorter range weapon. That does not mean the Pistol needs any nerf beyond the removal of its irrational splash tendencies. Your same arguments could be made for the Marksman Rifle.
  19. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    They can't, primarily because M45 shoots significantly slower and has penalties vs armored and massive, meaning its useless vs stalkers and the like and you are better off kiting with a UA420.

    Pistol has no penalties other than the 1.5 armor mod, but the number of enemies with more than 3 armor is pretty small for that to be significant, and the bonus damage you can get via talents/skills even more so to cancel that out.
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Actually, the M45 is kind of like the Pulse, in that it gives zero fucks about armor reduction, and it still deals significant damage per shot even though it has penalties vs. Armored and Massive (25 damage on average). The Pistol's other penalties (compared to the M45, anyways) is a lower base damage than the M45 and a much lower range (which is still a major factor, regardless of what argument you may make for kiting).

    Also, a suggestion: Don't bring talents into this, because any weapon's shortcomings can be easily compensated for via talents or mods, and their strengths played up equally as well.

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