The K Report: Weapons

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Jun 22, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    [align=center]The K Report: Weapons
    Corndogs are delicious and Dockers are comfortable shoes

    So I’ve been thoroughly examining weapons as of late, Soloing EC NM as an Arms Assault. In that case, you can hardly rely on kiting, and must rely entirely upon your weapon to get you through your troubles. Having literally no options other than “DPS it down” for an entire campaign tends to grant particular insight into weapon balance, and I’ll be putting those insights to good use.

    Now, there are two possible routes we can take. The most major point of contention is the Gauss Rifle (GPR to the newbies). To be blunt, the Gauss is a piece of shit. That’s not news to anyone. It’s crap damage with crap ammo consumption, barely excelling in precious few circumstances and being worthless in everything else. It says something when you’re better off using a sidearm rather than your rifle.

    But this is not to say that it’s a bad design decision. As shown in this video, having your main armament/starting weapon be clunky and slow can actually contribute very well to having a solid design because it encourages players to plan ahead, use different weapons to react to different situations, and generally lead to much more strategy.

    But the problem is that NOTD is not Castlevania. We don’t have a main weapon and a plethora of sub-weapons to pick up and cycle through. We’ve got a system that allows a single weapon to be equipped at a time, and making the default weapon a legendary piece of shit, well… you run into the Internet Explorer Syndrome; you only use it long enough to get to a better alternative. Considering that it’s called the General Purpose Rifle, I don’t really view this as a good thing. Modern assault rifles have more than enough power to punch through a wide variety of body armors, and yet the GPR (a weapon of the far future) struggles against the chitin armors of the slightly tougher enemies.

    Again, either direction is entirely valid; it’s just that we need to pick one or the other, so there’s a poll. Beyond the two general weapon balance proposals, there are suggested weapons and the (hopefully) triumphant return of the Shiva as a storyline-based weapon.

    Apollovania: General Worthless Rifle
    Show Spoiler
    This is focused around keeping the GPR as it is now and just making adjustments to the other weapons to make them more or less specialized in what they do, as the situation warrants. Keep in mind this proposal comes with a 10% reduction to ALL weapon switch times, as it is my personal opinion that if we are to focus the system around using the right weapon at the right time, we need to make weapon switching smoother.

    M5 Pulse Rifle
    Could use a higher splash. My suggestion is 1.25.

    UA420 Assault Rifle
    Needs a better armor penetration (0.5 at least) or higher base damage (a boost of 5 should do the trick).

    AER138 Laser Rifle
    Should drop the splash entirely and get a 10 point damage boost.

    P-45 Gauss Pistol
    Why does this have perfect splash? For that matter, why does it have splash at all? My suggestion is to remove both.

    Stinger Mk-3
    Splash type changed from “perfect” (I.E., the same amount of damage to all units in the AOE) to “standard”, in which the damage falls off based on distance. Abilities, in my opinion, are the only things that need perfect splash.

    L3 Grenade Launcher
    Drop damage by 100 points OR increase ammo consumption by 3. Currently is EXTREMELY powerful, and outdoes the Stinger versus Ground targets by a very wide margin.

    The Process of Standardization: Re-tooling the Bullet Spitters
    Show Spoiler
    This is focused around making the GPR actually capable of being a general purpose weapon, I.E., capable of dealing more than a single point of damage to roughly half of Apollo’s interesting fauna. It also is focused on bringing the other rifles more in-line with some sort of consistency, and adjusting the other weapons as necessary to fit more appropriate roles rather than arbitrary distribution of bonuses (for instance, the current Pulse’s insane armor penetration despite having most of its bonuses regulated to Light and Psionic).

    UA GPR-12
    Remove penalty to Psionic. Minis have gotten this treatment, and I question why the players haven’t.
    Increase armor penetration from 1 to 0.75. It’s not AMAZING, but it will at least make it not totally worthless against heavy enemies and several bosses.

    M5 Pulse Rifle
    I always thought the Pulse was the more SMG-ish of the rifles because of its energy-based nature and quieter soundset, along with bonuses to Light. I was honestly shocked when I saw the stats for the Pulse on the wiki, because as it stands, it’s leaps and bounds beyond the UA420. It’s amazing to me that the heavy rifle is currently better off at fighting light targets than the quieter, energy-based one with a bonus to light. Anyways.

    Increase splash radius to 2. Considering that it’s shooting straight-up energy rather than solid projectiles, I wonder why it doesn’t have a better splash radius.
    Reduce armor penetration to 0.65. I don’t know where the extreme armor penetration came from and, honestly, I don’t want to know.

    UA420 Assault Rifle
    Decrease splash radius to 1. More focused fire, less bullet spray.
    Increase armor penetration to 0.3. Getting the Pulse’s armor penetration to make it the rifle for heavily armored targets.

    MP9A2 Sub-Machine Gun
    Why does this have a +2 to Biological? Change it to an additional +4 to Light.

    AER138 Laser Rifle
    Should drop the splash entirely and get a 10 point damage boost.

    P-45 Gauss Pistol
    Why does this have perfect splash? For that matter, why does it have splash at all? My suggestion is to remove both.

    Stinger Mk-3
    Splash type changed from “perfect” (I.E., the same amount of damage to all units in the AOE) to “standard”, in which the damage falls off based on distance. Abilities, in my opinion, are the only things that need perfect splash.

    L3 Grenade Launcher
    Drop damage by 100 points OR increase ammo consumption by 3. Currently is EXTREMELY powerful, and outdoes the Stinger versus Ground targets by a very wide margin.

    Expanding the Armory: Suggested Weapons
    Show Spoiler
    Because you can’t walk two steps without tripping over a suggested weapon. These are the ones that I think are worth something. Rejected general concepts are listed at the end, with reasoning as to why.

    Line artillery, simple stuff. I’m aware it’s already on the way, but here are some numbers of my own suggestion.

    UGC MP Railgun Model 5
    Damage: 200
    Modifiers: +50 to Armored, +50 to Massive
    Damage reduced per 1 armor: 0
    Attack Speed: 2
    Range: 22
    Splash: 3 (linear from impacted unit, .22 splash width)
    Ammo Consumption: 5
    Weight: 22
    Equip time: 2.2
    Unique Trait: Recoil effect similar to the Barrett

    A lighter, man-portable version of the Railgun. Often used as an anti-tank weapon, its raw power is capable of taking out entire groups of enemies in a single shot.

    “Now you see them, soon; you won’t.” ~ 1st Lt. Wotz

    Plasma Cannon
    Something that Niteshade pitched to me once, and I still, to this day, think that it’s a great concept and that it needs to be used. It’s a great opportunity to have another player-directed weapon with unique mechanics that’s genuinely fun to use and is much more skill reliant than the spam-friendly Grenade Launcher.

    AER188 Plasma Cannon
    Damage: 200 (50% damage reduction to allies)
    Modifiers: +50 to Biological
    Damage reduced per 1 armor: 0
    Attack Speed: 2
    Range: 18
    Splash: 3 radius (“perfect” or “ability” splash)
    Ammo Consumption: 5
    Weight: 16
    Equip time: 2.2
    Unique Traits: Can only attack ground, no autoattack
    Reduces targets’ movespeed by 30%
    Reduces targets’ armor by 2
    Projectile has a low movespeed (2.5 or 3)

    The 188 projects globes of superheated plasma that detonate upon impact, flash-frying anything caught within the blast.

    “And that is how you make a crater that smokes AND glows.” ~ Sgt. Stephen “Starbuster” Townes

    KITH NOTE: These two are, at least by my design, supposed to replace the HMG and the Grenade Launcher in the Seth Drop Pool. The idea is that you get a “heavy artillery” weapon of some kind with the “epic” classification. All are capable of serving the same task (significant area damage), but they all accomplish it in a different way. I personally would then proceed to propose that the Stinger/Plasma Cannon/Railgun be removed from standard drop pools and be replaced by the HMG and/or the Grenade Launcher. Weapons powerful enough to be classified as “epic” should not be found through the mercy of the RNG and running around in circles looking for them.

    Arclite Hecate
    I’d much rather see this flamethrower be a flaming fluid projection weapon rather than a Hollywood-style, short range explosive type. So that’s what I’m suggesting, numbers-wise! Pour napalm on eeeeeeverythiiiiiiiiiiiing.

    Arclite Hecate
    Damage: 25
    Modifiers: +10 to Biological, +10 to Light, -10 to Massive, -5 to Armored
    Damage reduced per 1 armor: 0
    Attack Speed: 0.5
    Range: 11
    Splash: 0.35 (main), 1 (effect)
    Ammo Consumption: 2
    Weight: 15
    Equip time: 2.2
    Unique Traits: Spreads Napalm upon attacking. Napalm slows enemy movement speed by 10% and deals 10 damage per second for 5 seconds.

    A flamethrower of an older design, relying on a burning stream of napalm rather than a burst of superheated plasma. The napalm sticks to enemies, damaging them and slowing them.

    “Burninating the countryside.” ~ Unknown Flamethrower Initiate

    Assuming that we want them to happen, anyways.

    Helium-3 Igniter:
    1 bonus range, 10% bonus attack speed, 0.25 bonus Napalm splash, increase Napalm duration by 1 second
    2 bonus range, 20% bonus attack speed, 0.5 bonus Napalm splash, increase Napalm duration by 2 seconds
    3 bonus range, 30% bonus attack speed, 0.75 bonus Napalm splash, increase Napalm duration by 3 seconds

    Burst Fire:
    +3 range, -30% cone width, apply the Napalm debuff to enemies. If possible, change the color of the effect to a more pinkish or reddish tone.

    Apply Napalm debuff to Burned enemies. If possible, change the color of the effect to a more pinkish or reddish tone.

    Assault Shotgun
    Something that I’ve wanted for a very long time, and it makes total sense for the UGC to employ one in addition to the pump-action variant.

    AA-22 Assault Shotgun
    Damage: 35
    Modifiers: +5 to Light, +35 to Massive
    Damage reduced per 1 armor: 0.65
    Attack Speed: 0.93
    Range: 4.5
    Splash: 1.3
    Ammo Consumption: 1
    Weight: 15
    Equip time: 2.2

    While it lacks the wider spread and raw impact of its pump-action cousin, the AA-22 features a fully automatic firing mode and higher armor penetration due to much higher concentration of pellets.

    “Everything in that general direction must DIE!” ~ Capt. Riggs

    Noted differences from the current Shotgun:
    40% attack speed increase
    Increased armor penetration by 0.35
    60% splash radius reduction
    No stun chance
    Ammo consumption halved

    Energy-based Weapons
    NNNGGGGFHHH. These are never, ever going to work. Why? Because they’ll only be good on the Rifleman, the Medic, or the Pathfinder, and even in those cases they’ll be bad because energy = ability use and ability use > shooting a gun.

    Utility Weapons
    The Gravity Gun was dropped because it essentially gave any class an entire additional moveset. Flare Guns and Medic Guns will never make the cut because they would make certain classes less necessary if found. Not totally useless, but a weapon that can act as two to three abilities in a class’s skillset is bad news. If that class ends up using that weapon, that leads to them becoming much, much more powerful. For instance, a Medic using a Heal Gun means that she’ll never have to use Heal again, and can ration her energy much more, making the team much more durable than they normally are.

    Bringing back the Gravity Gun
    The Gravity Gun was removed because NOTD was not designed around it. The Half Life 2 series can get away with a Physics Gun because it was designed around having a Physics Gun. There are always items to be manipulated and used as weaponry, or shields from incoming fire, or materials to construct a barricade, or materials to construct a bridge. In NOTD2, the Gravity Gun is indeed intended to return, and it will be much more at home. NOTD2 is not going to be designed around the Gravity Gun’s presence, but it will accommodate it adequately by having a wide variety of ways to interact with the environment and objects within said environment. Edit/update: I've been doing work in researching a way to bring back the Gravity Gun in a way that would A: make it much less script intensive and B: remove all of the cheese potential. So don't worry, this will be coming back eventually, and you won't have to wait for NOTD2.

    Alternative Religion: The Shiva Rework
    Show Spoiler
    I had originally intended this to go into the K Report on Storylines or perhaps Bosses for “when it would be appropriate,” but I decided to just put it here. So, the Shiva is iconic. It’s the “if all else fails, destroy everything on the map” weapon. A reference to :AM for the sake of it, the original implementation was clunky. It was a gift from the Gods of RNG, and it was a fantastic way to murder a boss, but then it got nerfed. A lot. And eventually it got to that point where it was certainly powerful, but not powerful enough to warrant risking blowing up a team. So my suggestion is to make it marginally safer, and also into something entirely different that doesn’t take up inventory space.

    UAV Drone Controller – Single use Inventory item
    Summons the UAV to the player’s location, equipped with an advanced cloaking field and a single Shiva-class Nuclear Missile.

    Shiva Drone
    Hitpoints: Invulnerable
    Movespeed: 3 (flying)
    Sight range: 4
    Model: Small Wraith
    Timed Life: 5 minutes

    “Boogeyman” Cloaking Mechanism – Passive
    The Shiva Drone is equipped with an advanced cloaking mechanism that, at this point in time, cannot be detected by any known means.

    KITH NOTE: This is the gameplay translation of the drone’s invulnerability. In all reality, it’s just Permanent Cloak.

    Fire Shiva – Active
    The Drone fires the Shiva at the target location. After firing the missile, the drone will self-destruct. The Shiva deals 40,000 damage in a radius of 30.

    KITH NOTE: This will have a targeting indicator so you can actually tell what you’re going to hit.

    Aaaand that’s it. A drone that can seek out what it’s supposed to be hitting now carries the Shiva. A command card slot is freed up, and it is now much less clunky to use, as it’s not blind-firing into the nothingness. I’m aware that blind-firing into the nothingness was part of what balanced the Shiva, but the bottom line is that people ended up killing themselves too fucking often. We have to take the sharp edges off of it or the stupid players are going to cut themselves.

    Now, as for storyline implementation:

    The controller is airdropped in a sealed, blast-proof case, along with two Special Ops guards (Standard mini Marine but with War Pig model and Black team color, in addition to being equipped with UA420 and Reactive Armor), during Black Ops. The guards set a flare at their location and radio the players for help. The objective is to reach the guards before Black Ops does or before they’re overrun by the Infested. If the guards are killed before the players can reach them, the case detonates and destroys the controller. If the players reach the case, it opens (supplying them with the controller) and the guards follow the players.

    General Koller informs the players that there’s a controller stashed within the Armory during the reinforcements segment, but the Armory has been taken over by a Tartarus in the advanced stages of mutation named Tisiphone. The players will have the option of retrieving it for use against Perses.

    Tisiphone (Boss) [​IMG] (a quick pixel doodle that I did detailing what I basically envisioned her looking like)
    Base Health: 10,000
    Type: Biological, Armored, Massive, Heroic
    Armor: 5
    Damage: 50, 90 vs Structures
    Damage reduced per 1 point of armor: 4
    Attack Speed: 1.5
    Range: 3
    Movespeed: 1.75

    Model: Dark-tinted Fatty with the Hardened Carapace doodads and a Spine Crawler coming out of its face (Spine Crawler replaces the acid spit attack). Team color of Black.

    Hardened Carapace – Passive
    Tisiphone has the Hardened Carapace frontal damage reduction by default.

    Revenge – Passive
    The first player to attack Tisiphone will gain the “Revenge” buff. Tisiphone will exclusively target that player until they are killed, even if stunned. If the targeted player dies, Tisiphone will regain 50% of her lost hitpoints.

    Cruel Whip – Passive
    Tisiphone’s attack has a high chance of causing Open Wounds.

    Punishment – Active
    Every 30 seconds, Tisiphone will throw an egg at the highest concentration of enemy units. The egg has 1,000 hitpoints and will incubate for 10 seconds and then explode into 10 Parasites. If killed before that point, it will die harmlessly and spawn nothing, not unlike the rest of the eggs in NOTD.

    I have a huge rework planned for Hades, but for right now, when Koller starts talking to the Sec Team for the first time, he will tell them to secure the Comms Tower so he can transmit the codes necessary to activate the Drone Controller. All that is required of the players is to step on the Comms Tower hex to dispense the Controller.
  2. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    My feeling is that the Pulse is ignoring more armor because it is energy based, and energy wouldn't care much for thick carapace that is not metal/reflective plating (and even then)

    I would caution against improving armor penetration across the board though as this actually leads to less DPS when you use armor reducing skills, unless we somehow retool them to make the target take X more damage per hit instead.

    I'm content to see the psionic malus on GPR reduced to say 2 and increase the bonus vs arm/mass to 5. I'd also suggest changing bonus vs structure to bonus vs mech as outlined previously and supported by just about everyone.

    The AR needs a better armor pen, I would agree. Damage shouldn't need more than 1 or 2 point boost. It is sufficiently effective. I'd possibly even keep dmage as is and just buff the bonus damage by 1 each.

    Happy with change to SMG. I'd also like to see the armor pen from 1.5 go back to 2 or at least 1.75 to make it a good weapon to have if you have sufficient debuff capability.

    I mostly disagree with changing the laser. It is good when you don't have armor debuff capability and it is good vs certain enemies (Erebos, Hulk, Eos, Slasher, Devourer, Seth/IVAX, Titan, Lelantos), essentially anything with armor of 5 or higher.
    Making it burn through even more armor is likely overkill for Eos. Upping its base damage makes it outperform GPR, M5 and AR in nearly all instances. Its good where it is.

    The L3 is rather powerful I agree, but unlike other weapons does NOT benefit from any damage boosts regardless of source (even though it says it does). Damage is a tad high though for the ammo consumption. I'd say up ammo use to 4 from 3 and its fine. Consider that this makes it even more expensive to use than the Barrett Damage to Ammo wise and the Barrett at least gets daamge buffs.

    As for the suggested new weapons, I think we are quite alright with the variety of weapons we got and to be honest don't really need more currently. This may change with HotS, but take that one step at a time and get existing stuff sorted first.
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    You folks keep saying "energy" but you don't define the specific flavor. Unless you're thinking of something electric, energy is just the ability of a physical system to do work on other physical systems, with work being defined as a force acting through a distance. That said, let's throw down, right here and now, and define the type of energy we're using in our weapons.

    These are the plausible, "weaponizable" forms of energy that I can recall.

    Radiant (Electromagnetic) Energy
    -Measured in joules.
    -Can either be contaminative radiation (think Nuclear) or can just straight up fry a bitch.
    -Would produce a blue glow since it'll probably be Cherenkov radiation.

    Kinetic Energy
    -Gravity Gun, sans blue field.
    -Only visible indicator is its effect on the environment (big woosh of air).

    Thermal Energy
    -Straight up fry a ho, sans fire.
    -Only visible indicator would be haze.

    Sound Energy
    -Vibrations or disturbance of matter.
    -This one could be fun since you're essentially shaking something apart at the molecular level.

    Electric Potential Energy
    -Let's just go back to lightning and measure it as such. Simpler.

    Magnetic Energy
    -The shit we use in Gauss Rifles and railguns.

    Nuclear Binding Energy
    -Already used in Tactical Nuke and Shiva.
    -I'm pretty sure you're all well aware what it looks like.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I always saw the Pulse as Kinetic, and the blue flash was just a byproduct. I envisioned the Pulse shooting wads of Kinetic energy at targets, literally making its attack be a barrage of invisible fists. While much more effective against lighter, non-armored targets due to the overall effect being simple blunt trauma enmasse, it didn't have the focused penetrating power of the GPR or the UA because it didn't fire hard projectiles, and was more akin to a extremely weaponized air cannon.

    Assuming that you're talking about Standardization, it's not "across the board". GPR and the UA are the only ones getting better Armor Penetration. Pulse is actually losing all of its armor penetration.

    I never saw a point to the bonus vs. structures, and I honestly don't see a point to bonus vs. mechanical. One of the biggest things that make Nazara and IVAX threats is their Mechanical nature, and I'd really rather not give a bonus that is unique to the Heavy Machine Gun to the rifles.

    I wish you would specify what proposal you're replying to.

    But it's already extremely good in terms of being present in a debuff-heavy environment. Damage and a half is pretty sweet, IMO.

    Except when you need splash, or when you have any form of armor reduction of any kind. I really believe that it is not good where it is, as it's the only weapon in the game with Reverso armor reduction, meaning that teams have to compensate for its presence so its wielder can do the appropriate amount of damage. AP ammo must be discarded, Survcons lose all of their combat effectiveness, Combat Engineers can't use BHS, the Nanomed can't use VI, the list goes on. All because of a single weapon, and I think that's incredibly stupid. It's cutting off the nose in spite of the face, so I think the Laser needs to be changed significantly so it's legs are not cut out from under it in the presence of a few debuffs, and to encourage teams to not use it when they have more than enough debuffs to make real guns worth something.

    The Barrett cannot be used to stunlock a boss (bosses attack the grenades, effectively taunting them for the entire fight), or wipe out mobs with its splash damage, or set up mine fields, or be blind-fired around a corner or past a sight blocker to prevent troll hits. Again, the proposal is either drop the damage or boost the ammo consumption. Either is fine on its own. We can make the weapon spamtastic, or significantly less spamtastic and still good damage.

    I don't think we are, and neither does DA BOSS. If you'll look here under "weapons", you'll see that the Railgun and the Hecate are planned to be included, and have been for some time. Having the Plasma Cannon and the Assault Shotgun tag along wouldn't be too much to ask in my opinion, considering that there's been a very strong showing of support for both of those concepts for a long time, and they're not wacky "uses energy for ammo" or "is a utility in the form of a gun" weapons. They're sensible, useful, and fill a niche comfortably to expand player choice in a way that is effective and satisfying.
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Bonus vs mech is not CG unique. AR has it as well, just gauss doesn't.

    As for saying laser is terrible in debuff heavy encironment, the smg is horrible when you don't.
    In a team that has an engie without BHS (field or skip on combat) and generally a field med, laser is great. It isn't rare either with 3-7 per story.

    L3 taunt only works if you stun stuff or it can't see you. The easy solution is to simply reduce nade hp to say 40 and its totally fine. It currently has seemingly 300 hp or so
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    You don't say?

    Yeah, I know. SMG and Laser are opposite ends of the same extreme. My point is that SMG's mechanics are directly supported by the majority of the debuff skills (as they involve lowering armor, therefore increasing SMG's damage) and the Laser... isn't. All of the weapons, actually, are directly supported by a debuff-heavy environment. Some less than others, but the Laser is literally the only one that ends up losing damage because people are using their skills.

    And it's still got a hell of a lot over the Barrett, what with a wide variety of weapon uses and being able to be blind fired and large splash damage. Honestly, the only things that the Barrett has over the L3 is that it can attack air and that it can make OSOK into a pain train.
  7. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    I'll wrote a more comprehensive critque once I've had some thought and a night to think it over, but one major question I have is: If M5 Pulse has it's armor penetration nuked, where does it become useful? Removing it armor penetration basically guts its dps potential vs Erebos/Naz/Ivax/Seth/Queen (It effectively makes M5 very weak against Queen). It's bonus of anti light/psionic is easily supplanted by SMG, along with SMG being better splash and attack speed. Also it raises the question, what range weapon is now good vs Erebos? AS it stands, Flamer is fairly good, Sniper is effective, with HMG also decent, but M5 utterly excels vs Erebos. SMG/Laser/AR/Gauss all suck vs him or are not present. Even the buffed AR with 0.3 Armor penetration will still do negligible damage to him.

    EDIT: I'll run these numbers through my DPS spreadsheets and see how much it alters each weapons damage versus each enemy.

    Ok Results for GPR buff proposed: Not enough, GPR DPS is slightly buffed vs heavy armor value targets and doesn't completely suck vs. Infested Marines but its dps is still mediocre at best. The only real thing it does is permit the GPR to do more then 0-1 damage to Erebos (3-4 instead, Yay!)

    Reducing M5 Armor Penetration to 1 makes the M5 a midrange weapon for dealing with erebos, with effectively the same dps as pistol and Sniper and Barret and Stinger. It destroys it's dps versus queen, making it the 3rd worst weapon, after GPR and SMG, and putting its dps on par with sniper. It also makes it borderline worthless vs stranglers.

    Upping Laser Rifle damage by 10 is fair, improve Queen DPS by a fair amount and makes it better vs everything else.

    Changing Laser Rifle damage bonus to + 2 per armor: God No in so many ways. Utter Queen Faceroll. BASE DPS with a auto reload is 155, perfect gold reload dps = 185. If combined with +10 base damage, BASE DPS = 187, perfect reload dps = 222. Throw in an HE or FV or damm near other DPS buff = GG Queen before even 2nd wave every single time. Perfect opcomm (HE/HCM) with FV support would disentigrate Queen so fast, she would probably shriek twice and start running all at the same time (Even on NM). In pub... just lol, she would be dead before she could shriek once. That's with one laser, god forbid 3-4. Probably wouldn't even need a tank, just burn her down before she got even close to the team.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Hm still, bonus vs structure is utterly useless and I don't see why basic bullets should deal more damage to buildings (or tbh meh for that matter)

    There's just so few structure marked enemies you might as well not have that bonus
  9. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    All weapons have potential energy... :p

    I tihnk we should make the SMG just absoultely terrible against anything with any kind of armor. To me the SMG is extremely overpowered and extremely easy to use. An utterly terrible player could run around with the SMG the entire game and get enough kills to compete with a commando wielding the flamer/hk and an arms assult wielding a flamer/cg, and in my opinion that is just not right.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    They'd also be wasting a hell lot of ammo and not contribute at all towards dps when there's high armor enemies around
  11. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Umm... it already does terrible vs anything with more then 2 armor, just a ton of teams mitigate that by handing the SMG to SS con with an AP round, making all but slashers/hulks have negative armor. That or given to a Cengy with AP round, roughly same deal. Kith suggestion of making it have like +8 to light and no bonus to biological will already weaken it vs most armored stuff (Agrons/Stalkers/Slashers/etc.) and make it even better versus light, which is what it should be. The main cause of a SMG wielder getting so many kills is that often trash mobs are mixed in with heavy mobs, so even if the SMG is wasting ammo vs a Hulk, the splash will kill everything around said Hulk. Plus one of the best places for SMG is also where enemies clump the most, the Muta wave.
  12. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I propose that higher rating will reduce weapon switch time. It's a skill based move and is an added incentive to maintain higher rating. Any violent objections?
  13. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Interesting. What magnitude were you thinking and how does this work with weapon mods and rifle innate
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    More movespeed and reduced weapon switch? I like it a lot, actually. A nice little cross-promotion for ratings. Anyhow, replies!

    The way that I saw it was, like I said, the "SMG Rifle". Good at shredding light targets and/or Infested Marines with a much higher range than the SMG and not as much armor reduction. I actually wouldn't mind its armor reduction being the same as the Gauss's, I just don't want it to be the "best rifle in the game" that it is now.

    Yep. Still not the best answer, but a hell of a lot better than it currently is. It's the "Deal some damage to everything" rifle, emphasis on "some". I still want to retain a focus on NOTD's weapon switch mechanic and make it appropriate to use the right weapon at the right time, but the difference between the two proposals is putting more emphasis on switching by leaving the GPR a useless piece of shit or putting more emphasis on logic.

    Yeah, that's what I figured. Also makes it not automatically suck in a debuff heavy environment.

    That's why I said "if".
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I was thinking for AER the better idea might be to keep the damage but make it that negative armor does not reduce its damage. It can only be 10+ not 10-
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that's impossible without some sort of double-reacharound trigger shenanigans getting involved.
  17. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    You have my attention, sir.


    Anyway, I love the idea of reduced switch time on weapons for higher rating. Especially for Marksmen and other Barrett users who are smart enough to switch off to a different weapon when dealing with mobs that don't contain high priority enemies.

    As for the laser rifle, it should be possible to just have it affected by base armor, instead of the modified amount. That way players still have to think before shooting (stop using the damn things on Agrons), it still eats the Queen for breakfast, and other players aren't barred from using their armor reduction talents. This, in turn, will make other weapons like the 420 and whatnot more effective against her, raising overall team effort without making too much of a fuss.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Whatever we do to the Laser, I just want it to be better.

    Whatever we do to the M5, I just want it to be less face-stompy. The idea of a boss killer rifle really bothers the hell out of me, because we've already got the pistol, the flamethrower, and the chaingun, all of which are practically designed around murdering bosses as quickly as possible with appropriate trade-offs (low range for the pistol/flamer and extreme reload for the chaingun). The M5 at this current time has no downsides. It's fast, it's light, it reloads quickly, and it obliterates bosses with high armor pen and omgwtfbbq +7 damage to Heroic. I think it's way too powerful, but all we need to do to it is adjust the armor pen to something more standard rather than the disgustingly powerful weapon that it is now.
  19. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Perhaps make the M5 more specialized then?

    Drop the Heroic Damage bonus, up the light/psi bonus by 3 each, lower base damage by 1-3, and reduce the armor pen to 0.5 or 0.6. I don't really see the need for an Anti-Heroic weapon. And yes, this will make M5 utterly destroy light/psi stuff, but I believe that's the aim of this weapon, long range, small splash anti light weapon. The way I see it, is M5 should be everything SMG is not, but both still focusing on the same kind of enemies (Light/Psionic).

    Right now SMG has high splash, large armor reduce, high rate of fire, low range. So M5 should be low splash, small armor reduce, slow (relatively) rate of fire, with high range.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Hm it would make m5 pretty pointless in a lot of situations where there are no light or psi enemies.
    Currently it has some use vs bosses which may neither be light nor psi even when not useful anywhere else much.

    Spealing of weapons, I think pistol needs a base damage nerf. Its simply too good. Versus a low armor target, it will out dps a HMG user.

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