The K Report: Stats

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, May 28, 2012.

  1. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Nope. My only concern is I don't really know what effect the Strength Weight has in real terms. Just because I never really saw a difference when it was on Endurance. It's a natural fit, and I agree with it. Just not sure how the number really effects the game where its at so I don't know if it'll be too powerful or too weak.

    If someone could provide an example so I can get my head around how it works and just what effect it would have in some peasant logic terms, would be nice. e.g. "If you have 9 Strength as a Recon equipped with a Pistol and no armor/augments you could carry 33 magazines loaded before negative movespeed from weight as opposed to zero Strength where you would have negative movespeed from weight at 18 magazines." Least then I can look to my experience running ammo/equipment and the like and say if it should be bumped up a bit or toned down.

    All I ask so I can wrap my head around it. Sorry for being a pain in the ass.
  2. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

  3. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Going off what I think would make sense, each item has a specific weight and each class is slowed a different value per point of weight.

    Lets talk about a Heavy Class - loss of 0.004 move speed per point of "weight"

    Weight Tolerance reduces the amount of move speed lost per point. (How well you tolerate weight, hence, how well you can deal with the burden of weight. If you think about it, it should reduce the penalty of weight, allowing you to carry more before reaching the same burden.)

    Looking at it, it is probably the most OP thing I've ever seen if my logic is correct. The amount of power you have strength in terms of reducing the weight penalty makes it so that more weight = more move speed to a high extreme.

    Too put it in terms of how I believe it works.

    As an heavy class, one point of weight normally reduced your speed by 0.004
    With 9 Strength / weight tolerance giving at .000075 per point (maxing at 9 points) this penalty is now .003325 per point.

    Lets say you carry 100 mags, so 100 points of weight.
    the comparison would be .4 vs .3325 or .0625 move speed, equal to ~3 points of Agility.

    That is the exact reason why weight tolerance is so weak. You would need, at least 300 points of weight for 9 points in agility to be inferior in terms of muling items to this weight tolerance.

    Your number is way to high. 2 Points already makes Weight have no effect on the player, and 9 points makes you run like nothing else in the universe and would make C6 a desirable item over C2, simply because.

    Its that one stat that is hard to balance, because its similar to Agility in that it helps you move faster, but it has to be done in a way that doesn't make it better then agility, but also doesn't make it terrible in comparison to agility.

    Heavy Characters should probably be able to nearly nullify the effects of weight with maximum points in Strength. I say nearly because no matter what, you will be slowed by weight, so it has to have some penalty still persistent, but at that point, it becomes hardly noticeable for our more muscular Heavy's, but still noticeable on our lighter classes.

    Again, this is all my thought and logic being used. Could be wrong, but I believe I am not.
  4. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... See, this is the problem with ambiguous mechanics. It's borderline impossible to make reasonable proposals with stuff like this floating around. I'll gladly adjust the number to something reasonable if/when I get clarification from Da Boss on what weight tolerance actually does because apparently there are multiple theories and I don't know what the actual fuck.
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Consider the weapon weight mos which would make adding endurance worthwhile to cancel it out
  6. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Exactly Kithrixx. I mean I understand not being transparent as that makes it harder for others to copy you. But on the other hand a lot of these not sufficiently explained mechanics are reasons why you get well meaning proposals form the community that has vaguely defined stuff like "little better than" or "a decent..." etc.
  7. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I'll look at it after work since today is a half-day. I haven't had a day off since the 29th and won't see one until this Friday so bear with my absence.
  8. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Strength. Not Endurance. There's also the Reload Speed weapon mod that makes adding Agility worthwhile.
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Weight is hardly a factor.

    In the current incarnation of Weight tolerance, you would have to be carrying an absurd amount of heavy gear and magazines to have Weight Tolerance be worth it, considering 3 points in Agility achieve the roughly same amount of speed increase as 9 points in Weight Tolerance with 100 points of weight.

    Heavy's lose 0.004 move speed per weight
    Medium's lose 0.005 move speed per weight
    Light's lose 0.006 move speed per weight

    .000444 would be the maximum weight tolerance value. Otherwise, it would make Heavy's move faster per point of weight. I'll use the value .000222 per point of Strength as a comparison point.

    In terms of endurance, at 100 points of weight, for Heavy's, instead of being slowed by .4, it is now .2, which would be equal to 9 points in Agility.

    Lets talk about how much most classes would carry.
    Rifleman(.005): C2(15) + HMG(20) + 2~3 Ammo mods(3 Each) + 40 ~ 100 Magazines = 84 ~ 144 weight.
    Medic(.005): C2(15) + Sniper(12) + 2 Arcs(3 Each) + 20~60 Magazines = 53 ~ 93
    Assault(.004): C6(25) + HMG(20) + 3 Ammo mods(3 Each) + 40 ~ 120 Magazines = 94 ~ 174
    Recon(.006): XS-4(10) + Shotgun(9) + 2 Arcs (3 Each) + 20 ~ 120 Magazines = 48 ~ 148
    Marksman(.006): XS-4(10) + Barret(25) + 3 Ammo mods (3 Each) + 20 ~ 60 Magazines = 64 ~ 104
    Demolitions(.004): XS-4(10) + Shotgun(9) + 2 Arcs & A mod(3 Each) + 30 ~ 70 Magazines = 58 ~ 98

    Agility: .0234 speed per point (.2106 w/ 9 points)
    Strength: .000222 Weight Tolerance per point (0.001998 w/ 9 points)

    Roughly 10 points of Weight would make Strength Equal to Agility in terms of movement speed.

    This value (.000222) is roughly 3x as high as the previous value (.000075); and around this value, would be where I suggest placing the new Weight Tolerance value.

    From my understanding, Weight Tolerance reduces the effect of Weight. Strength should enable players to carry bulk loads with more ease, while Agility should enable players to carry light loads with more ease.
  10. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So hey, I updated the weight tolerance thing to be less stupid. I'm pretty sure that discussion is complete as far as Black Ops goes, so into the crucible of NOTD Discussion!
  11. Kusanosky

    Kusanosky New Member

    And what about give 1 or 2 primary stats for each class?

    If the class have the primary stats she has the bonus, other way she has bonus/2.
    It will be maybe more easiest to balance stats for each class, specially INT.
  12. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    I think sight radius should remain in perception. With max perception, it is still less added sight than a single ocular. Consider reducing it to +.2 if think the current +.3 is too much. Sight radius is super helpful (especially in survival), and I rarely see people leaving occs behind even with max perception stats. I hear “any extra occs?” in non pubs all the time.
    All stats kinda reduce the importance of items. Ex. Agility: CMAs, Endurance: NHAs, New Intel: Arcs, Perception: thermals. I think some sight radius should remain in Perception.

    Also, I kinda don’t like energy regen in Intel. It is already an overly maxed stat by players. Energy is just so key to the game. This single stat becomes super strong.
  13. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    What if in addition to what t2 and t3 requires to have before a marine can invest talents in, what if it also required the appropriate level (such as level 5 for tier 2, and level 9 for teir 3) as to prevent premature ult acquirement, and therefore making DT's less of an issue (regarding to hitting ult early)
  14. Nebibubi

    Nebibubi New Member

    A few things I'd like to go through:

    1. Good thing there's a black ops section, I love how clean, clear and conscript all the different points of views are presented and discussed before presenting it to the rest of NOTD to fumble/argue on it as well. Definitely helps alot with the overall process. Good job guys! :D

    2. About the disappearance of the extra lifes from endurance and double talents points from intelligence, I think that overall it will make the game more balanced as was Kithrxx main reason to take them out.
    It will also give the rating system a more meaningful purpose since basically, people with +1900 rating will actually have something to brag out as you won't get extra lives anymore.

    However, I'm also kind of sad because the extra lives and the DT was something I always found fun and worth it as you never knew if/when you'd get one (especially for the double talent point). But as I said earlier, I get where you're coming from.

    3. Lastly, if endurance is to stop giving extra lifes, then I'd rather also see the reward for getting a high level of rating somewhat more buffed up than the current %reduction in switching weapon time. I'd favor adding on it or else replacing it with something more rewarding. I know there's also a +1% movespeed for every 100 rating above 1700 but again, seems to me like i'd rather just keep my rating around 1800 where I can still avoid trolldeaths. It's just not worh it.

    Obivously, this is all IMHO :)
  15. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Bad news. I'd rather keep Stats as a player-chosen thing.

    The issue with Occs is that they don't directly assist in survival. They don't allow you to kill things faster, stay away from things, or survive hits. Perception is still kind of crapping on Thermals, but A: Invisible enemies are bullshit and B: Therms were supposed to get a buff to make them more desirable.

    Also, one of the major reasons that Intelligence is so popular is because of the Double Talent chance. DTs have the potential to completely unhinge balance and pacing, so it's worth maxing out. If it becomes nothing more than an energy/energy regen buff, then I can guarantee you that it will become less popular.

    Because that's a whole lot of extra code, and a major part of the Stat rework is streamlining.

    There's actually something like that that I proposed a while ago (specifically, "The More You Sweat, The Less You Bleed").
  16. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Well at least we know kiths doing work
  17. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I am always working.
  18. Lulz

    Lulz Well-Known Member

    so i didnt go through and read all the following post to find out what was said, but i feel like adding my 2 cents on the int and dt chance. I think removing the dt chance all together is not the best thing to do. Sure it can be a game breaker, but when your playing hard enough games its not gonna win it for you. After all is said and done this is a game, games are about fun, and dts are alot of fun. Especially for those new fellows in the 2k-10k range. There is nothing wrong with leaving a little bit of fun luck in the game.
  19. JAW

    JAW Well-Known Member

    I like dt's a lot, but they can become incredibly overpowered in some cases, and are non-existant in all others. I would prefer to trade this gimmick for a constant, helpful bonus. It is kind of like the GG, it got axed because it was more trouble than it was worth. And before you say it, having dt's AND a new constant bonus is just op to the nth degree.

    If you don't like my reasons, theres a crap ton of this argument in the section you decided not to read.
  20. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton


    Ladies and gentlemen, don't do this. It's infuriating and it makes me think that you are either stupid or an asshole. It also does not help the discussion in any way, so technically I can flag it as spam and start handing out probations. Why? Because of this:

    Blatantly ignoring a lot of the heated discussion that went on in a thread and then openly admitting it instantly devalues your opinion to the point where it is often not worth considering, therefore making it meaningless and equal to a whole lot of nothing. It also makes you sound like you don't really care about what was posted previously so you just skipped ahead so you could get your say.

    Please read the thread next time. And if you don't? Don't openly admit that you didn't, because it's dumb and disrespectful to the people who have posted previously.

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