The K Report: Stats

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, May 28, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Keep it civilized. I will not hesitate to delete a post and ban a user for 3 days if they throw a tantrum. I don’t even begin to care if your points are valid, if you can’t keep a lid on the QQ over what is ultimately a proposal, then you don’t get to participate in the discussion. This is non-negotiable.[/align]

    [align=center]The K Report: Stats
    Because Kithrixx is an anti-fun Wizard Skeleton[/align]

    So here it is, the thing that I’ve been working on endlessly for almost a month and a half. I’ve run simulations, calculations, had people build maps for me using NOTD unit stats and test the differences between the “statted units” and the vanilla, I’ve just… I’ve worked on this a lot. As with everything I do, I expect resistance, and that’s fine. Differing opinions fuel discussion, and without discussion, there is no progress. Just please keep in mind, these are not suggestions I make lightly. I have examined every possible facet of the impact these changes will make for probably much longer than I should have. Overall, it's just a removal of arbitrary massive increases in avatar strength and streamlining every stat to only do affect two parameters (the glaring inconsistency that is the current Endurance bothers the hell out of me). They're mostly small changes, but a lot of thought and effort into figuring out what was the "just right" amount.

    +11.5 hitpoints, -0.0002 Weight Tolerance
    • Weight Tolerance buffed and moved to Strength. The reason that the Weight Tolerance effect was so stupidly low on Endurance was because Endurance did four different things, so it was pretty spread out.
    • Hitpoint gain increased marginally to compensate for the lack of hitpoint gain in Endurance. Total gain is now 103.5 instead of 90, a difference of 13.5.

    Movespeed +0.0234, Reload Time -0.08
    • No change, actually. Agility is fine as it is.

    Critical Strike +1%, Detect Radius +0.5
    • Sight radius removed to give Occular Implants more prominence. Occs are largely considered to be unimportant once you get into the upper ranks where you have more stat points to spread around, and an item becoming obsolete simply because you have enough XP under your belt bothers me. The Detection screws with Thermals as well, but assuming that Thermal Sights get the buff that I suggested, they’ll still be desirable even when a player has 9 Perception.

    Health Regeneration +0.042, +2.2% Ailment Resistance
    • Health increase removed, as that’s better off on Strength.
    • Health Regeneration buffed slightly. Maximum additional health regeneration from Endurance is 0.378.
    • Ailment Resistance added. More contextually appropriate, in addition to having a real utility. Endurance and Strength are the stats for shrugging off hits, and I'd like to have them both do that effectively in unique ways.
    • Extra lives mechanic removed, because it was extremely, utterly overpowered. That small percentage fired, as far as I could tell, every minute. When I maxed out Endurance to test it? There wasn’t a single game that I didn’t get at least two extra lives. When the RNG was feeling particularly frisky, I’ve gotten up to sixteen. Extra lives are there to help the newbies learn and to help non-elite players cope with the oftentimes unfair nature of NOTD, and should not be randomly available to unhinge the dynamic difficulty system that we have going. I would have zero issues with a side mission being implemented that granted an extra life to all players upon completion, but extra lives being handed out like candy is just… not good.

    +5 Maximum Energy, +0.02 Energy Regeneration
    • Double Talent chance removed. While not nearly as overpowered as Endurance’s Extra Lives, I again have a serious issue with massive jumps in power being handed out on an arbitrary basis. A chance to gain a double talent wouldn’t be so severely unbalanced if it were a different kind of leveling system, but considering that it means that the player can gain their ultimate a level early? That’s a serious problem. It has the potential to turn even the hardest difficulties into a cakewalk (see: getting Inception early in Apollo Sec).
    • Added energy regeneration boost. Fits the theme, maximum bonus is 0.18/sec, so it’s hardly going to shatter balance. I’ve tested this one more than I’d like to admit. I know Boss Ability said "no energy regeneration ever", but that doesn't change my stance on it being a good idea. I have run this through every possible scenario, from Rifleman to Engineer to Pathfinder. Yes, Intelligence is going to be one of the most popular stats because it lets you use your abilities more frequently, but I don't believe that to be a bad thing considering that what we want more than anything is players using their skills rather than just relying on DPS.
  2. Mirage
    • Donator

    Mirage ಠ_ಠ What are you looking at?

    :< Endurance having health increase honestly feels more logical as you're more prepared to 'endure' damage and such..

    That's my 1 cent.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I agree the terminology is a bit wonky, but hey, if your biggest complaint is with the names, then I'm good.
  4. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    You cannot add a "half a range" of detection. Sight can only be added in single unit increments. However, you could do 1 sight every 2 points, or something to that effect.

    Edit: Look at that, it does work for detection, but only as a behavior.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    That's what the current incarnation is in NOTD. The only change I made to Perception was removal of the Sight increase.
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I generally agree with the suggestions, except for the removal of the bonus lives which were quite useful for those on the higher rating end and to provide a chance to prevent troll deaths. The rate of gaining them was a tad high and could be decreased about 25% or capped at 2 per game.
    I disagree with the assertion that you got at least 2 lives every game. You would be right if there was a total of at least 2 lives per game in an 8 player game across all players combined, but there have been plenty of games of me running around with 9 endurance and not getting a single life. I got a bonus life roughly every 2.1 games, considering most games I play are some form of speed.

    Endurance already had ailment resistance in its current form, that's not new as far as I am aware. Yes that means Endurance used to do 5 things :p

    The energy regen from Intelligence as Ability stated is a no-go and I agree with what he said. It very much throws the balance out the window when you consider all your balancing has been around "I don't consider stats" and Intelligence will get maxed by every Joe.
    So that leaves what to fill the Intelligence slot with. In the DT thread we didn't quite come to an agreement on removal or keeping, but my feeling is that most agreed with limiting the number of DTs from intelligence to 2 or so (just so someone doesn't run around with max intel, gets a DT and removes it when restatting)
  7. TuRKeYMaN

    TuRKeYMaN Member


    The energy regen on Int makes sense. I naturally assumed there was one when I started playing.

    *On the topic of stats, How could the stat heal be fixed?
  8. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    It all looks fine to me. I do have a question: I can't think of any class I wouldn't max out intelligence first in this situation. That may just be my playstyle, but I'm not sure if intelligence might still be a bit better than the other stats.

    That said, I don't know how the numbers work out and if you've tested it as much as you say then you would probably know better than what my first impression is.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    This is no baseless assertion, Ghost. Over the course of 40 games with 9 Endurance, not once did I get less than two bonus lives. Also, I don't particularly care how useful they are. Veterans already have plenty of bonuses going for them, they don't need the training wheels.

    It was suggested waaaaaaaaaaay back when, when Stats were first being introduced, but it was not implemented.

    I don't care what Ability said. Ability hired me to give my suggestions and my opinions, and it's my opinion that the energy regeneration bonus will not break the balance of the game. I have studied the numbers over and over and over and I know these stupid little decimal numbers better than I know my family's birthdays. I know them better than Niteshade does, who tore open the game and wrote a full-information wiki about it. I have scoured the effects that this change would have for weeks, running calculations and simulations and all other manner of things. After all this work, I STILL maintain that an energy regeneration bonus would be valid.

    Here, let me throw my calculations at you.

    Game time: 1:45 (on average), 105 minutes
    105 * 60 = 6300 (seconds in the game)
    **Per game calculations based on constant regeneration rate and do not factor the player having full energy**
    BONUS NRG: 0.18 – 10.8 energy per minute
    1134 energy per game
    RIFLE: 1.38 – 82.8 per minute
    8694 energy per game
    MEDIC: 1.1992 – 71.952 energy per minute
    7554.96 energy per game
    ASSAULT: 0.5507 – 33.042 energy per minute
    3509.1 energy per game
    RECON: 0.6484 – 38.904 energy per minute
    4084.92 energy per game
    MARKSMAN: 0.6992 – 41.952 energy per minute
    4404.96 energy per game
    DEMO: 0.8007 – 48.042 energy per minute
    5044.41 energy per game
    ENGINEER: 0.4492 – 26.925 energy per minute
    2829.96 energy per game
    COMMANDO: 0.5507 - 33.042 energy per minute
    3469.41 energy per game
    FLAMETHROWER: 0.7184 – 43.104 energy per minute
    4525.92 energy per game
    FORWARD OBSERVER: 0.6992 - 41.952
    4404.96 energy per game
    TECHNICIAN: 1 – 60 energy per minute
    6300 energy per game
    CHEM EXPERT: 0.8007 - 48.042 energy per minute
    5044.41 energy per game
    PATHFINDER: 1.2 – 72 energy per minute
    7560 energy per game
    PSI OPS: 0.6484 - 38.904 energy per minute
    4084.92 energy per game
    As you can (hopefully) see, the energy regen bonus isn't going to make ANYONE overpowered. Yeah, the Engineer stands the most to gain, but what's he going to do with it? Spam BHS a little more? Drop a couple additional Satchels? The Engineer's entire "thing" is maintaining whatever he builds with micro, not constantly expending energy. As for the constant casters, some additional energy isn't going to massively overpower them.

    I have run these numbers more than I'd like to admit. I've used dummy maps with NOTD stats, and I've used basic math and calculations. I have done this more than I probably should have to prove that an energy regeneration bonus on Intelligence would not be overpowered.

    Also, yes, I have balanced around statless characters. If you don't balance for the base, then you're literally forcing them to get whatever stat points to be able to function, and quite frankly, that's bullshit.

    You can pick up over a hundred bonus health, ailment resistance, completely disregard the need for Thermal Sights while increasing your DPS, or increasing DPS and kiting ability. Intelligence allows you to cast more and more often, but that doesn't mean that it's better than any of the other stats. As it stands, it's better because it allows you to cast more and also potentially completely fuck up the pacing of a match.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    The total energy per game is not a useful figure. A better figure is how long you need to wait from 0 energy to cast a spell, I.e seconds per spell.

    Example 30 energy on assault = 55 seconds at base regen, 41 seconds with 9 int, meaning you can cast the spell 25% more often/faster than usual which is a huge difference.
  11. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Intelligence does nothing if the user is active enough in their playing to make use of it. That's what everyone forgets. All the energy in the world doesnt make a lick of difference when you spend all game running around at full energy being noncontributing. Because energy is expended in rises and falls, ie, high amounts of energy are used during the NM Mining co (Plasma Satchels, Monos, Taunts, Healing, Surg and Adren) while a much lower amount is used while scouting the map, with the only real energy usage there being for Hugger/Infestor killing (outside of a few thats like Medic and Surv Recon which may remain highly active). All increased regeneration is going to do is decrease the amount of "recovery" time between these big surges of activity. This gives a wider margin of error for players, but is hardly gamebreaking.

    Intelligence is already the "best stat" because of the double talent chance, which remains far more overpowered than anything Kithrixx has presented. Because "derp durp its percentage and u cnt control it" is a stupid fucking argument. The double talent WILL immediately shift all game balance in a player's favor. The entire game is focused on only being able to get certain skills at certain points. Once thats thrown out the window, classes like Demotank, Mobrecon, Field Engy, OpComm, Technician, and PsiOps become gamebusters. Each campaign is dictated by a few linchpin classes (yup). For Easy Co its generally Tank, Opcomm, Medic. The rest of the team is all supportive to these three in some way and could easily be replaced. In Alpha its generally SurvRec, OrderBat, and AssMM, the rest of the team will fill a general support and dps layout. In Apollo its Tech and Psiops. No one else Matters. A good MotM Tech can easily cover an entire weak team if he can tank well enough. Inception is the lifeblood of Apollo, and it has been since it was changed from its first form. Inception will make or break a team, every time. Now, for intelligence, these same classes I listed get their lives made somewhat easier. But for many, proper energy management far exceeds mindless spam. At best it will let them crack off another volley of skills before they run dry. It does not instantly make every class overpowered skill spamming machines.
  12. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    As well all know, vets do make full use of their talents at all times and don't sit on a full pool unless there really is nothing happening and not even a tiny thing they can spend it on.

    What the change does is make it even more easy to spam the skills you want/need whenever you want/need with less regard for energy management because with the increased regeneration you don't need to manage as much.

    We shouldn't ncessarily compare regeneration to double talents either. Compare it if you will to 10 energy per point instead of 5. Buffing max energy is a lot less balance breaking than regeneration is, because if you run dry, you still can only cast a spell every n seconds instead of n/regeneration+stat

    Would I love higher regeneration? Of course. Do I think it would be balanced at this level? Certainly not.
    Anything higher than ~0.005 per point is too significant a change to the regeneration and makes the skill a must have. It would buff your DPS a lot more than any other stat points.
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    And that's what I was aiming for. That's the result of the seemingly endless testing and figuring and calculating. As long as someone sees what I was getting at when I designed this like I did, I am satisfied with the design.

    Funny you should say that, because you contradicted yourself not one post later:

    Assuming that our excellent veterans are doing as you say and constantly putting their abilities to work, total energy regenerated per game is indeed a very important figure. If a player never has a full energy pool (which will often be the case in the terms of someone smart enough to use their abilities even if they're not mindlessly spamming), then factoring in the total for the entire game will allow us to gauge how much of an impact such a regeneration bonus will have on the overall availability of energy. Through that, we can gauge how much of an effect it will have on said characters in terms of frequency of skill use.

    Yep. That's exactly what it does. But the difference is small enough to not be gamebreaking. As mentioned, between the maximum energy increase and the energy regeneration, you'll be able to fire off an additional volley of skills, maybe even two depending on who you're playing. Considering that abilities are still bound by cooldowns and durations? I'm not concerned.

    INCORRECT! I knew you were going to wheel this argument out at some point and it makes me feel good to know that my calculations weren't for naught. To make a long story short, there are a variety of buffs that increase the energy regeneration or energy gain of players. Really, all I need to say here is "The Surveillance Recon" to point out why that is an amazingly bad plan. Simply raising the cap on Intelligence means that players can store more and more energy, and in the instance of, say, the Pathfinder or the Rifleman or the Technician? The small energy regeneration isn't going to push them into overdrive. Having 90 extra energy to play with instead of 45? Good job, they just became infinitely sustainable. Making Intelligence a balancing act between Maximum Energy and Energy Regeneration is actually far more attractive from a numbers standpoint because then it caters to nobody. We have such a wide range of character types that making it just one kind of bonus can outright shatter balance.

    Remember in the Player Incentives thread, where the Shield Traits were being examined so thoroughly because the Pathfinder and the Demo benefited from them so much and the Technician basically got two freebie points because he doesn't have any shields? It's like that. Making the Intelligence bonus more general and spread out in its effectiveness means that we have way less incidents where we run into issues of a bonus being totally underwhelming on one class and completely overpowered on another. For instance, even though the Engineer stands the most to gain from this, it's not going to turn him into a killing machine. When I was playing the Engineer, I wouldn't have even had points in Intelligence if it wasn't for the Double Talent chance. I've already got 200 freakin' energy, who cares about boosting that maximum? I mean, yeah, the guy only has .4492 energy regeneration, but that hardly matters if you don't act like a moron. Field Engineer has a way to mitigate that horrendous energy regen, and Combat barely uses his if you don't spam BHS like an idiot and you don't lose your 'bot.

    My point of all this is, I have exhausted every possible venue of research and testing. I stand before you now not saying that "it probably won't be overpowered", but instead saying "there's absolutely no way that it's going to be overpowered", because I've tested this to hell and back. I have examined all sorts of alternatives and have the acceptable ones ready to present, but I refuse to fall back on those until I get a definitive "no" from DA BOSS after he reads through every bit of this topic. I have busted my ass making sure this would be acceptable and balanced, and I can guarantee you that it's not going to have a significant, overpowering impact any more than any of the other stats.

    The Field Aid Medic disagrees.
  14. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    No the field aid medic does not disagree because it can for instance cast more restoration = more energy for team or heal the commando with less regard for energy hence boosting the commando's DPS, or even fix the Tech faster for higher DPS. There's more examples there.

    As for max energy making rifleman and PF infinitely sustainable, they are already with +45. +90 won't mean much of a difference at all to them. It is also why having more HP regen is generally more useful than having a high total hp unless you are talking about breakpoints for surviving slasher/queen hits.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    In the sense of supporting the DPS more, yes, that does make sense. But for the Medic on her own? She still fully disagrees. Also, yes, she can spam Restoration more, but it's not like Medics didn't do that already, considering that it functionally costs a whopping 5 energy because of Restoration targeting the caster. I don't think a 0.18 energy regeneration boost on a character that functionally already has 1.2 energy regeneration to her name. She already regenerates Restoration's cost in less than a third of its cooldown, adding a little more than a tenth of her current regen will just be a drop in the ocean.

    Anyhow, in terms of taking hits, health regeneration isn't outright better than health maximum, it's simply different. Health regen helps to mitigate several hits over a period of time, or taking damage from ailments. Health maximum helps prevent getting nuked by attacks and taking several hits within a very short period of time. Health maximum, in this case, is better from an objective standpoint simply because of the presence of the Medic and Medical items. If the situation was more "navy cross, no medics", then the two stats would be more evenly matched.
  16. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Not to mention increasing Energy Cap instead of a balance to energy and regen can do strange, wonderful, horrible things to the Marksman. I mean his whole thing is having a ton of energy, being able to turn that into massive amounts of damage, then having a natural downtime due to the regen. Increasing the regen you might say makes it more unbalanced because that downtime is lessened... by maybe a few seconds over the course of a minute. But nowhere near as unbalanced as being able to maintain maximum effectiveness for 2 minutes instead of 1.
  17. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Just out of curiosity, what are the alternatives you mentioned?
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'm not even mentioning them until I get the final yes or no. This is what I think is best for a lot of reasons: ease of implementation, time taken to implement, balance concerns, the whole nine yards. I'm only going to present alternatives if the best course of action is turned down.
  19. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    An additional +45 energy is actually a HELL of a lot for a good Marksman.

    I'm in favor of the energy regeneration. Keep in mind it's not going to instantly win games. All the energy in the world wont help someone who doesn't properly use their talents. The regen bonus is also so teeny (half an arc reactor) that you wont see people throwing energy management out the window.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Read my medic guide. Restoration only heals 40HP on the medic, nothing else. It gives 70HP and 15E to everyone ELSE. Restoration costs 25E at a regeneration of 1.2 and cooldown of 10. Meaning you will take a bit more than twice the cooldown before you can cast it again from regeneration.

    Max energy means a character can after saving up a fair bit use abilities a bit more (and 45 energy actually means just a volley or two extra, actually less because a volley implies a number of skills and most skills cost around 20), but after that they are dry and need to regen as they would normally. Energy regeneration on the other hand means that they can consistently use their skills a lot more. Hence max energy in most cases is weaker than regeneration and less balance affecting.

Share This Page