The K Report: Player Incentives

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    [hr]

    Blaqk gonna show Kithrixx how to really nope someone!

    [hr]

    New players are not penalized by this system. New players, in fact, have zero change to them. The fact that you think that rewarding veterans can even remotely seem like a punishment to new players is comical at best.

    Obviously you're playing the wrong game. NOTD isn't designed to be a masochist's fantasy, it's designed to be fun and rewarding. You already lose lives by gaining rating, in fact I start with and obtain zero throughout the game because of my rating. To subtract a 5% movespeed would penalize everyone including new players who will eventually become veterans.

    Preaching elitism and newbie tolerance in the same post. You may not think it, and a lot of others wont either, but that is an elitist suggestion. If we went with your idea, then rating would factor into getting invited to organized games. How would you like it if you just unlocked commando, had 1800 rating, and Jercy turned you down from his Nightmare Alpha because your rating sucked? I wouldn't give two shits because I'd just play Photon Cycles with him later, but most people would feel pretty shitty. Your idea would penalize veteran players and make newer players feel shitty.

    Everyone is okay with aesthetic changes because they're pedantic! I'll be honest, if the only benefit to higher rating was a little doodad to put in your hat, even I would just tank rating.

    As it stands, before the 5% ms buff, having a high rating was pointless. Now there's incentive. Enjoy it.
  2. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    I feel with this post all you are doing is proving how detached experienced players are becoming from the new player community. How are we going to attract new players to the game? By showing them you have to play ridiculous amounts so you can finally unlock the bonuses and all the classes? Everyone should be able to compete at an equal level. How fun would ladder be if players who played more and were better got stronger units. No one would want to play.

    You are not really penalized at all for high rating. You get access to more classes. More, tougher enemies mean you rank up faster in game and have your T3 earlier. That seems like a big plus. You hardly need extra lives when you are at 1900 rating. You are better and shouldn’t be dying. The only time they help is if you are tanking and then just put stat points in endurance. Because, oh yeah you are an experienced player and have way more stat points than new players.

    And what you still didn’t address is bank reloading and how much these changes encourage it.
  3. Lulz

    Lulz Well-Known Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    ^ w0rd
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    Honestly who does bank reloading or anything? The only time I've seen anything like that is a few Trolls who used it to troll Pub Games with the credit store, back when it existed in Newbie, and Niteshade who Pauses and Unplugs his router if things go stupidly south. I don't think it's as much of a problem as you think it is.

    And I hardly would say I don't have any empathy for Newbies. I'm constantly making newbie guides. Most of the Newbie Tips that appear in game were my idea. I still CLEARLY remember my first NOTD game and the level of confusion and panic that was involved in it. I take my time out of games to help guide and teach newbies. I don't quite know why you seem to think that because I've played for over a year and a half now that I'm some elitist prick who tramples over newbies so my boots won't get mud on them or anything. In fact I kind of take offense at the accusation that merely because I think that "Performance should have rewards" (How almost all of civilization works) means that somehow I'm out to screw everyone who hasn't been around as long as I.
  5. Lulz

    Lulz Well-Known Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    Arct your part of the 2% that stills gives a shit about the new guy. Dont take general posts so personal[hr]
    why not just go back to the old ways and just not allow people to view there cp till 5k (or whatever it was). Seems much more logical than making them salivate over it for 100 hours of gametime before seeing any real bonus.
  6. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    I was thinking more of Blaqk with that comment. Cuz his response really was assholetastic.

    I think it’s great that the tips are your idea, and that you are helping new players. There should be more of that. All I’m really saying is look at competitive online games. Most experience bonuses are aesthetic because they want to keep the playing field level. This is so that new players can join in on a game that has been around for a while and not feel like they are already so far behind it’s not worth playing.

    I know I’ve played pubs with new people that asked, “How much experience do you need to unlock commando? And how much xp do you get per game?” I tell them 10k and you get maybe 80 per pub game. They do the math and realize they have to play 100+ games. I’m not saying you need to unlock commando earlier because rifle is the 1st class you can get and is one of the most fun. But, rating is the same thing. It takes a long time to get good enough to hit 2000. This is just 1 more turn off for new players. If there is a shortcut to higher rating or a penalty to losing it people WILL start saving banks more often.
  7. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    A 1500 rating new player has 9 lives and can take 50 hits without losing rating.

    At 2000 rating, I have zero lives and lose rating after 10 hits.

    That sure sounds like a penalty to me.


    Wrong. You get early access. Read the description.


    Wrong. You gain the same xp from a ghoul in 1300 sr as you would in 1800 sr.


    Wrong. That's class points, not rating. Completely irrelevant to this discussion.

    Wrong. That's also irrelevant to this discussion. You're padding your reply with bullshit because you don't have a real response. Ladder games are competitive where players fight each other. NOTD is cooperative where players work together to fight a common enemy.

    Wrong. A 5% movespeed is hardly going to encourage bank reloading, and if it does, so what? Are you going to stop playing because someone lost 10 rating to troll hits in an Apollo B run and reloaded their bank?

    Let's compare the gain/loss.

    Took 25 hits in an Alpha run.

    -14 rating
    +115 xp
    +60 credits
    +1 CP

    Oh shit! I lost 14 rating! I better reload my bank so I don't lose my 5% ms.

    [hr]

    Don't be ridiculous. The benefits of high rating doesn't merit giving up xp, credits, and CP.

    In addition, if you don't give incentives for people to play the game long-term, then far too few players are going to do just that. You'll end up with nothing more than a 1.5 hour long game of Hero Attack, where nothing is gained and you might have had some fun.
  8. Lightning
    • Donator

    Lightning Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    When will this be in effect?[hr]
    I like you , blaqk

    I would have raged on Ms lol
  9. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    Oh! I completely forgot!

    DH0.
  10. Waves_Blade

    Waves_Blade New Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    Hmm...

    So I read through the thread and read about the issue people had with "farming CP". The current gain/lose system proposed isn't bad. Seems fair, but, if people do have issues and want it changed, why not just have difficulty gaps on gaining CP?

    Ex. at 20 or 30 you can only gain/lose CP in that class in vet games then the last 10-20+ in nightmare games? (tweak #s as seen fit).

    Personally, I think the proposed system is fair without any further changes, just offering a suggestion.

    Question:

    These traits are not replacing stats are they? They are a separate reward based on dedication to the CP system?

    Big question though:

    Will there be a CP wipe if these changes happen? Or will CP be carried over? (I hope they would be carried over)

    Small Notes on the changes:
    The starting out at lvl 2 seems like a very well thought out change to me. I on occasion find myself with my ult as a DPS before anyone else in pubs and have to hold back to let others catch up in exp for a few lvls, or keep killing stuff and have them underleveled until they finally catch up later on (not a smart idea)

    I personally don't like holding back. I like going pew pew and throwing grenades and shit. I don't like sitting in the middle of the group with hold fire on waiting for others to get their ults. I WANT TO GRENADE OR SATCHEL OR W/E everything in siiighttt because its fun! If i can do that without potentially crippling the team then +11111111111111
  11. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    There would be no CP wipe. I do, however, like the idea of the loss % of CP scaling as CP gets higher. 1% per point of CP or something silly. That way my 70 recon cp would have a 70% chance to decay while my poor 15 Marksman would only have a 15%.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    Though I'm betting The Man will instantly say no to that for fear that you could get 50 in every class and maintain it with only moderate difficulty, in his mind.
  13. Lightning
    • Donator

    Lightning Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    This will increase more nightmare lobby, increase play time to bring note up to page 1
  14. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    Not necessarily. If we're upping the CP requirement for starting at level 2 (double talent) to 50, then you would actually lose CP quicker than with the already proposed system. However, you could more easily maintain the lower CP bonuses in your non-specialty class. It would also be impossible to have 100 cp in more than one class. So NiteShade and his nonsense would be fixed.
  15. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    *shrug* I have terribad luck with well... luck. So even a 50% loss is almost guaranteed to be a 100% loss to me. I'm betting every Newbie mode I go into now I'll lose at least two CP... and I only have CP in three classes...

    Don't believe my luck is that bad? Let me tell you a story about my luck... :p
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    ... You're kidding, right? High rating players have lower hit tolerance, less extra lives, and a more difficult game because spawns are higher and have more hitpoints. High rating does make the game more difficult, and it's hardly a punishment to less skilled players for a small bonus for doing well.

    Hats will be available later as a seperate package.

    And if you reload the bank, then you're actively preventing your own advancement. You sacrifice EXP and potentially credits. Even then, the rating bonus is not that high.

    Yes, inferior players that can take up to ten times more damage than the veterans. For instance, if a newbie gets hugged away from the team, then they have roughly 2-3 minutes to be saved due to extra lives. Vets have about 20 seconds before a zombie finds them and eats them unless the player in question is the tank, in which case they have marginally longer.

    I'm thinking about it.

    If you play a bunch of Nightmare and branch out? Probably.
  17. blackbog

    blackbog New Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    The cp idea is nice but will do the exact opposite of what your wanting especially for people who have high xp, so now we have a bunch of 40+kers all being a commando (or whatever their fav class is). It's nice that you want to increase the customization, but this will only increase the amount of people who will grind with the same class and it won't help the issue at hand. I don't agree with the proposed changes at all. Thinking this will help at all, is well... wishful thinking.

    Hardened/Veteran - Grants 1 CP upon victory. 10% chance for other CP to decay.
    Nightmare - Grants 2 CP upon victory. Grants 3 CP upon Speed victory. CP does not decay.
    Survival - Does not grant CP unless on Nightmare, which grants 1 CP upon victory. CP does not decay.


    This idea is going to push away new people and your going to get less people playing this game. The stat idea is just as bad, I don't mind the 5 % speed, I can go with that, as you have no lives. I don't however agree with the stat idea at all. It's giving them a double bonus for having high rating. Unless you have it autosave in games at a much higher rate than the current one your going to cause vets to leave pubs. You already see this in pubs, ohh crap I lost rating, gotta leave..... So now the team has to compensate a 50k xper and this will not help that.
  18. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    I've thought about the incentives some more and believe the following:

    1. Bonus MS from Rating.
    This needs to start at a higher rating cap (1800+) or make losing rating a lot easier below 1800 to justify giving 2%+ to anyone who gets to 1600 (anyone who consistentely survives ere2 even with 500+ hits)
    Otherwise it is very much meaningless and might as well be given to everyone to start with. Refer to my post in JAW's thread on rating. Essentially make rating loss below 1800 as high as at 1800 with slowing down of loss at 14xx and stoppage at 13xx. Max lives now is 5 anyway, not 9.

    2. Bonus stats for high rating.
    Actually after some thought this is obscene for higher XP players.
    I'd end up with 11 in Str, End, Agi, Int. And I dare say that I would find it significantly easier to survive at 2k rating as a result than at 1.7k rating, given that any game we play is 1800+ anyhow and with 11 End I'm going to be floating bonus lives.
    It should be more of a trade-off whether you favor early lives or set boni. This current system may work for low XP players, but for people at the higher XP end with maxed medals and the like, it would be grotesque and not balanced. The bonus has to be smaller I think and indeed I would favor having just the MS bonus and maybe 1-2 extra stat points that you can allocate as opposed to +2 to everything at 7+.

    3. CP
    Giving this more thought, I just feel that the status quo favors people playing non CP classes and branching out a lot more than the proposed system. The proposed system will funnel players down 1 class route and psychologically force them to stick with it. You thought it was bad when someone grudgingly refused to play Assault? Well now you have people flat out refusing because there are simply too many boni tied to the CP class and CP is easier to lose for pubs (i.e. new players and those who can't get into organized games)
    I am in favor of the lvl2 start, but I think that's pretty much it. Maybe change shields to +10/+1 instead of +20/0 as they currently are and we are golden.
    Doesn't really need changing - it works fine for the most part.

    People like Nite are the exception and not the rule.
  19. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    The only "issue" I have with the idea of starting at level two is that it simply translates 50 cp = 150 xp (in game xp). Perhaps it's just me, but it seems to just be a tid low, starting with 1.5 fests worth of xp only.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: The K Report: Player Incentives

    Well, effectively it is EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW.

    Except because you are a level higher, it doesn't snowball out of control as easily. Least that's the theory on the board. A DPS character who starts out at level 1 with two talents ramps up much faster than a tank at level 1 with two talents. Or any character with just 1 talent. It doesn't equate to a 1 level increase throughout the game. By the time you the first big milestone you can end up 2 levels ahead of your teammates because your damage rose faster, allowing you to get a greater share of the XP while still having the same low XP benchmarks that everyone else has. By the time you hit tier 3, most of your team is 3 levels behind you. It just snowballs like that.

    The idea with it increasing your level is you have the exact same bonus. An extra talent point. However since you are a level higher, it takes more for you to gain a level. Where your team might hit nearly level 2 by the end of the first spawn you are only halfway through level 2.

    It makes your early game power exactly the same.

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