The K Report: Player Incentives

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I disagree. At some point, we need to find an end to all this. That's why I was hired: to find that reasonable endpoint and start aiming for it. It is unreasonable and unfair to expect NOTD to continue evolving and changing forever. However, what we can do is aim to make it a polished, completed project so we can continue on to the next game. Notd is not an mmo where we can just continiously update the source game, adding more locations and quests with no end. We could feasibly do this, but not without years of constant effort battling the editor restrictions, among other factors. The point is to make a game, and we're pretty well on the way on that path. We just need to finish polishing things up, add a few more changes and/or additions to gameplay (I'm looking at you, Alpha Storyline Choice and Hades Bossfight). Once we have everything in place, we can call it finished and move on to bigger and better things.
  2. Hongbearr

    Hongbearr New Member

    Kith: Although you have already decided, I would still like to point out the following:

    Currently, NOTD has a very large player base. Amongst this player base, only a very small portion play nightmare games.

    For majority of the players, this proposal "caps" the number of classes they can specialize in, just as the current CP system does. With a 30% decay, in effect, you can only specialize in 3 classes. While it is possible to grind hard enough to have CPs in 4 or even 5 classes temporarily, due to the negative CP gain, it will eventually decay to only 3 classes over time. Therefore, it's not just mildly harder to gain CP for multiple classes. It's impossible to gain more than 3.

    For the minority of players who do play nightmare, the benefit is obvious, but those players are discouraged from playing other difficulties, such as non-nightmare alpha or Apollo. Unless discouraging vets from playing in non-nightmare difficulties is by design, it should be avoided at all costs. The reason is NOTD isn't the only game on SC2. Those who are discouraged from playing non-nightmare games will simply choose to play something else when there isn't a nightmare game available.

    The current proposal does nothing to solve another basic problem, which is CP decay has a tendency to "lock" players into play only their CPed classes. Under the current system, once you have CP in 4 classes, playing in the 5th class will most likely result in a CP loss. Therefore, players are unwilling to play in classes they do not have CP in. Under the new proposal, the increased decay rate changes that number into 3, which is even worse.

    Lastly, I play nightmare mostly for XP and Credit gains. To me, they are vastly superior to anything I can gain in any other difficulties. If the increased experience gain and credit isn't going to persuade someone to play nightmare, I don't think the CP system will either. The reason I still play pub isn't because there isn't enough incentives or that I want some cheap gain. It's because

    1. I like meeting new players and pub is where the growth is for NOTD. If I see someone worth recruiting, I'll grab him and invite him to my next nightmare game.
    2. There are times when an organized nightmare game is not possible. Even if there are no gains what so ever, I would still probably pub, but I would never do it if I will lose what I have earned.
    3. Nightmare runs are monotonic. It's always played the same way amongst the vets and there are very little variation. Pub is unpredictable and sometimes Lol-ish and fun.

    And I would like to keep playing pub for as long as there isn't any penalty for doing so. Another reason why it's important for vets to not be discouraged from playing pub is because many "new vets" got to where they are because they were recruited or they met someone in pub that they looked up to.

    The CP system is an important component of the game and if we are going to change it, and from the looks of it, putting in major development effort into it, let's get it right and not create a new system with the same flaws as the original one.
  3. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    Too lazy to comment on everything Hong, but what I will comment on is:

    The only players that get locked are the players that want to be locked. Anyone can play whatever class they feel comfortable playing. If the host wants a player to play a class they have cp in, they should just tell the host that they will not play the classes they have cp in. If the host has a problem that someone is not playing a class they have cp in, that is his problem, not yours. Just make sure you know how to play the class you want to play.

    With the inclusion of how EU plays their EC NM games, one is able to actually appreciate the fact that (at least EC) the campaign might not be done how one has always done it. Europe does EC NM differently than us (at the moment I will concede they may do the other campaigns similarly due to my own ignorance)

    I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please remember that NotD is not a country, not a religion, and as such, people cannot force you to play the class you were "born with". They cannot force you to read The Big Book of Night of the Dead Strategy Guide and tell you to accept it and to follow it. What I am trying to say, you are not a slave to the cp system, you are not a slave to the strategy of another (so long as you are host, but if you are having trouble with monotony, I am sure being a host would be the natural course to fix it).

    Too lazy I said, can only comment on two things I said...

    Lets hope I did not open a can of worms, and I am sorry if I did or hurt anyone's feelings in the process.
  4. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member


    You can not underestimate the positive influence of having skilled veteran players playing in pubs. More than the social aspect, or the leadership aspect, having skilled players in a pub (or in any game) shows new players what is possible in a game that is quite challenging to learn. It also gives new players a taste of the locked classes, which encourages them to keep playing.

    When I was a pretty new player (~3k XP), I played a game in which everybody stupidly died before Tart except me and one other player. That player was a very high XP pyro flamethrower and he proceeded to pretty much solo the entire game. Although I was forced to almost solo at times (he did not "lead" or say a word the entire game) and I ended up with a -30 rating (stalkers were fast and numerous, and repulse sucked back then), I still consider that game one of the most fun games I have ever played. I was amazed at the skill with which the flamer played (he ended up with ~3 hits taken), and I was also proud that I was able to survive under such difficult circumstances. It was that game that encouraged me to keep playing NOTD and to eventually branch out into organized games. Given that the player in question has already voiced concerns over the proposed system, there will be fewer and fewer stories like this, which I think will be a detriment to both the game and the community.
  5. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Nightmare runs are by no means set in stone. There is also at least one holdout that I think is done in a stupid position and I can think of a far better one if I can convince a group to try it with me.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Updated the decay rates. 25/20/15. Hopefully that's more agreeable, considering Recruit's decay rate isn't going to change from what it is now.

    Trying to please everyone is a very difficult thing, but I'm doing the best I can.
  7. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    Them decay rates, I believe I approve.

    until i change my mind
  8. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    I think there should either be fixed cp decay across all modes or fixed cp gain across all modes.

    So something like
    +1 cp recruit 25% decay
    +2 normal/hard/vet 25% decay
    +3 nm 25% decay


    +1 cp recruit 25% decay
    +1 normal/hard/vet 20% decay
    +1 nm 15% decay

    It is a little too much incentive with the proposed system for vets to never play anything but -nm. There is already a huge bonus for -nm (xp, medals, rating, credits).

    What we need is incentive for newer players that aren’t yet ready for -nm to get out of recruit and play normal/hard/vet, but still keep some vets in pubs from time to time. (btw what is the rating for a normal difficulty game? I’m pretty sure no one is playing normal)

    ^ this (Although I think I see this in a little different context)
  9. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    The part about adding more cp per difficulty I disagree with, people who grind nightmare runs a lot will have no trouble to build up extremely high decay scores, and even have at least 10 cp in every class because of the increased gain. I already know Niteshade has once gotten 10 cp in every class without increased gain, imagine with +3 cp, how many people who grind nm will achieve enough cp to have to be able to have cp in every single class for a while

    I feel that this is the best thing we have thought of so far, it doesn't give pub Heros (like myself) any disadvantages because the decay rate is the same, however it also helps nightmare grinders because if they are forced to pick a class they have no class points in, if they win, there is a very high chance that they will not be "punished" for winning as another class, I currently have no cp in any class, which is why in nightmare games I random or fill out "gaps", when I do that I dont want to lose cp in the class I'm trying to get cp in, if you win with your favorite class good for you! But the 15% decay on other classes will help a lot if you want to get cp in more then one class
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The "people might start grinding NM" argument holds no water with me. If they decide its time to put on the big boy pants and play the hardest mode available as much as possible to get the goodies? Good for them, they've earned it. There's still as much incentive as there ever was to play the lower difficulties, and in some cases more incentive.
  11. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    Definately making more credits in pub now than when I was newer to this game.
  12. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    I don't think keeping the decay rate with more cp gain is the same as reduced decay rate and unchanged cp gain because if you have cp in more than 1 class the 3 extra cp isn't exactly useful if you play a class really often in pubs or whatever and you decide to work on another class the less decay score will help with farming other class cp. but then the 3 cp would help if your trying to stop the class your currently playing from decaying
  13. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    There is no “people will START grinding nm argument.” They already are. Look at the EC and AC nm medal / credit runs going on already. If you put too much disincentive on playing anything below -nm that’s all vets are gonna play.

    There is potential for a rift to form between vets and new players. No vets will play pubs. Why would they? New players will join, lose, and then go play something else because no experienced player is there showing them the ropes. Most of the successful -nm games are already exclusively formed with PMs to other vets with no advertisement in the channel. This doesn’t leave much potential for newer players to get in with a skilled group.

    A little incentive might be good. But, not too much. You also don’t want new players trying to play modes they just aren’t ready for.
  14. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    The new decay rates are a nice step in the right direction. I would also recommend removing the +3 CP for speed in NM as it is actually quite easy to get speed in both NM Alpha and EC. I'm not a NM Apollo expert, but it used to be very easy to get NM Apollo A Speed as well. With a team equipped to deal with the new troll Apop, this probably hasn't changed.

    I would also recommend a 10% decay chance for NM games in general just to maintain the decay rate scaling between difficulties. The extra CP per win is enough of a bonus for those who play NM as NM games already give extra XP, Credits, and high level Medals.

    It's okay to give a bit extra to those who play the hardest difficulty, but those bonuses shouldn't completely overshadow the other modes. If there is 0 decay chance and 3 CP per speed win, there will be a dramatic shift in the current playerbase towards exclusive NM play, which will eliminate the middle learning ground for new players just coming from pubs.
  15. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    After consulting with Kithrixx, one last change that will be made is that the bonuses will be slightly rearranged. Because most of the bonuses are permanent, and affect players throughout the game, those bonuses will be the harder ones to get achieve (traits, etc.)

    To the end, the level 2 starting bonus will be the 10 CP bonus, with all other bonuses adjusted up accordingly. The simply rationale is that starting at level 2 is a one off bonus and its benefits diminish rapidly through the game, so it serves as nice starting bonus, where as the traits are more powerful, akin to stats, and thus will require more effort to achieve.

    So the new CP bonus arrangement will be as follows

    10 CP - Start at level 2
    20 CP - +2 Shield Armor
    30 CP - 1st Trait Point
    40 CP - +2 sight range, +1 detection range
    50 CP - 2nd Trait Point
  16. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    What does trait point mean? Is it talent point?
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Read the OP.
  18. poor_newb

    poor_newb Member

    I don't want to be playing the same 3 classes, but these bonuses are strong enough that I'll be forced again to play the same 3 classes.
  19. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Except if you NM non stop or regularly enough, you can do many classes with ease
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I think, maybe, the Offensive Traits are a bit too good for what they are. but I'll withhold actual judgement until I see them in game. At the very least a 10% Crit seems a lot more powerful than 10% HP, for example. Eh. I'll just see what happens.

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