The K Report: Player Incentives

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Kith, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Kith, the traits are too powerful at the moment. Look at the stat points from medals to see a pretty ridiculous comparison.
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Not to mention the mere 150 XP bonus is very subjective. I mean if you are running a DemoTank, then yes, having 150 XP makes very little difference and you effectively average out sometime around Epsilon, sure. Having an OpsComm that starts with 2 in Adrenaline for example allows you to get a lot more of the kills than "merely 150 xp" would suggest at first glance. You maintain the advantage it gives you for longer, though eventually yes, it will drop off. Just later than it would on the Fort Demo.

    I mention this as that point gets lost a lot in the "it's merely 150 xp/10 zombies" discussion. It's why the old bonus talent was very, very unbalanced. On a support class or defensive class, it wasn't as big a deal. On a high output offensive class however it let you ramp up seriously. The bonus XP does do a bit to cut down on that ramping up problem and makes the CP bonus a bit more uniform across classes/trees in its effectiveness.

    Which I see as a good thing. I'd love it if all bonuses are like that, as currently 20 shields on say, the Tech is... meh. On a Fort Demo, Flamethrower, or PF is quite decent. And everything else is more or less just kinda nice to have for dealing with a rare troll spawn.
  3. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I would caution against comparing Pub vs NM though as Recruit mdoe generally grants more XP to players through boss boni and xp per kill if memory serves correctly on the aftermath of the old XP debacle.
    Pub = level fast regardless, NM = you level based on what you do.

    17xx SR tart = around 8k hp, 18xx SR tart = 9k hp.
    No big difference, but you have lower levels and fewer talents to deal with it and the waves/bosses that come after it.

    AC is not dependent on getting T3 early as an example. EC very much is, in order to get performacne boni and making it through the post ere waves with increased muta/slasher spawn and meno worms if you don't kill the nydi nor meno because you didn't have the T3 to do so.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    If you think they should be adjusted, suggest some adjustments. I personally think that they're fine, as they only apply to certain classes and can be lost, unlike stat points which upgrade everything and never go away no matter what. However, my mind is, as always, open to differing opinions.
    [hr]
    I've been playing a lot of EC, NM and non. The CP rework was bound to make waves, and so I decided to quadruple check everything. So far, I have viewed no issues.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hmm... well, just for the thought. What if there were fewer Traits, but they were combo packages?

    Here's examples of what I mean:

    Brute: +10% HP, 1 armor, -5% Movespeed
    Hunter: +10% Critical Hits, +5% Movespeed, -5% HP.

    That sort of thing?
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Think they should be like Weapon Mods, and require the player to take a penalty to access the bonus? Also, I really don't want to package them together. The idea is pllayer choice, and combo packages take away some of that.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I think since they are class specific you can get away with (And wouldn't be a bad idea) to have a 2 bonus, 1 penalty ratio. Depending on how traits were this could allow someone like Nite, Master of OpsComm to say double up on Hunter for movespeed and tons of Crits with his insane attack speed and high damage. Or people to mix to try and avoid the penalties and end up with just slight bonuses instead.

    Edit: And to be clear I meant fixed bonuses to penalties shaped on roles that a Marine might take on for himself. Not a mix and match any combo. Might make people annoyed that they can't reduce the one thing they don't care about to max out the one thing they do. But I think it has more depth that way.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    How about this: the first Trait is free, but the second one requires a negative trai (we'll call them flaws) before you can access the second trait bonus. I really don't want packages, because traits are already fairly powerful. I don't want even more hardcore minmaxing, as traits are supposed to be a series of significant but not OP buffs. The combos won't be as bad considering that they have negatives built in, but I'd prefer we stuck to individuals.
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well, if you don't package them, I don't think you really need to consider negative flaws. The bonuses themselves aren't really all that huge. 26 HP on an Assault? 8 shields on a Demo? Presuming that the trait bonuses are applied to the standard values and not adjusted afterwards to reflect changes in game. If any of them would really, possibly be OP it would be the combat based ones. Though I'm hesitant to say that it would be that much of a problem. More or less because when you do look at the best case scenario (OpsComm), they are likely to be just a drop in the bucket of their DPS.
  10. Mick

    Mick New Member

    I've looked at Kith's latest setup on the first page, and read up to about page 11 until the thread became flame waresque, and then the more recent posts. Based on what I see and empathizing with both sides of the argument(s) I figured I could add in a decent proposal for the CP issue:

    Is it possible to have CP capped for each of the modes? (I *think* Waves_Blade mentioned this) For example:

    Recruit: Can attain up to 20 CP in each class, thus earning ONE trait point.

    Normal: Can attain up to 30 CP in each class, earning the sight and detection (and since vet adds in burrowing festors, earning the detection will be a nice perk for doing future vet-and-harder runs)

    Vet/Hardened: Can attain up to 40 CP in each class, earning your next trait point, which will help when you attempt...

    Nightmare: Can attain up to 50 CP (or 60 if you want to allow a CP buffer), and thus your char may start at lvl 2

    The CP system is capped to reduce the "get 100 CP in rifleman, then work on mando/mm/whatever while my expendable rifle CPs diminish", since I know Ability wants to limit the amount of classes one may specialize in. Each of the game modes should have some form of decay, balanced for difficulty. However, nightmare's decay should still be high enough where one would expect at least a 30% chance of losing a CP in one of your non-played classes.

    In this way, very few people will be able to completely "specialize" in one class, and even fewer will completely specialize in multiple. However, many will be able to have mid-level specializations (say one trait point) in multiple classes, thus encouraging less of the "I only play mm!" types. If you feel you want to commit to a class in order to get your next trait point and lvl 2 bonus, you'll have to "prove" yourself in vet and -nm games, not just GRIND in pubs.

    However, as you play vet and -nm to advance, you risk losing your mid-level CP's, which you could always make up by playing the relatively easier normal and recruit modes that pubs usually are. This way you're not locking experienced players out of pubs, as they will most likely want to maintain their cross-class perks in case they join a -nm game where they need to be their non-main class.

    This method also encourages NEW players by giving them constant and easy-to-achieve goals, while not forcing them to play harder modes if they don't want to. A new player could play and win 10-20 games to get cp in his favorite class, and by that time he'll certainly have the xp required for normal/vet (1 cp = 1 win = ~70 xp per game). He or she can then either play more pubs in an attempt to try a new class (either existing or unlocked by the xp gain) and gain new class CP or if they feel ready (as someone who has won the game 10 times probably will) to move up to organized games.

    Finally, this also will encourage more Vet games, as there will be a whole tier of CP's where the "easiest" game mode in which to get them
    is Vet mode. Obviously, someone who plays only pubs ever won't be able to obtain more than 20 or 30 CP, but then you really don't NEED the perks of higher CP brackets at the Recruit and Normal levels. This method offers rewards to all levels of players, encourages more experienced players to play with newer players, and *shouldn't* hurt the balance of the game.

    The idea may not be perfect yet, but I hope some of you can try to expand upon it because I think it offers a unique solution that shouldn't be too hard to implement.
  11. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    [​IMG]
    I'll get to it later.
  12. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    tl;dr

    Edit: looks like nite posted before me but we have the same idea
  13. Mick

    Mick New Member

    TL;DR: Have tiers for the CP that are based on the game difficulty (Recruit, Normal, Vet, etc.). Tiers are based on the incentives per amount CP as described in Kith's OP. Can only earn up to a certain number of CP per class for each difficulty. Cap CP to avoid "I have 10000 cp in rofl! LOL!", reducing number of max cp classes per player. Keep decay rate the same-ish so vets are encouraged to still join pubs.

    Sorry for the previous wall - reading might help explain my point further though.
  14. Hongbearr

    Hongbearr New Member

    Do medal points decay? No. Because once you won with a certain condition, you've done it. Why should the CP system be any different? Once you've won as a ROFL or Demo or whatever, you've done it. In fact, the "Win as medic" medal already can be used as the CP system for the medic class.

    *broken record repeating itself* The original decay was meant to prevent players from maxing out CPs in all classes. Since the new design removes this limitation, i.e., you can max out your CPs in every single class if you want, why bring back something old in the new design that serves no purpose?
  15. Mick

    Mick New Member

    I was unaware that Ability gave the a-okay to maxing out CP on all classes - I thought it was against his "mantra" if you will.

    It also seems like the current system on the original post that Kith has kept updated has specific rewards for CP in a class. The medic medal is a medal, and awards a stat point. Kiths CP system awards other perks. Can you point to me where it was decided that CP has become the new medals?

    If it has, I think this will promote even more "Oh, I have all my CP points in asstank, I only need recon points, I'm not going to asstank for the team." situations. I'm certainly against a CP = medals system.
  16. Hongbearr

    Hongbearr New Member

    CP system is being reworked. There are two directions which we can go: 1. Make it a class specialization system. 2. Make it a class bonus system. Original system is #1 and Kith's proposal would make it #2. The reason why we are debating about the system is because Kith is kind enough to put his proposal open to the public for comments before implementation. Boy, did he get more than he bargained for.

    I did not say CP is now the new medal system. I said the medic medal can be used by the CP system. Currently, Lvl 2 medal can be gained in any difficulty and Lvl 3+ must be gained in nightmare. As a PARALLEL, we can make the CP system such that CP<XXX can be gained in any difficulty and CP>XXX can only be gained in nightmare. There is already a reward for winning as medic. As a PARALLEL, winning as any other class is similar to winning as medic. Since medals don't decay, there are no reasons to have any CP decay either.

    You forgot to mention "Oh I need my medic medal" or "Oh I need my Silver Star, therefore I'm not going to asstank for the team" situations. The new CP system will have a impact on what people choose to play, just as the old CP system did. If someone is selfish enough to put his personal gains before the team, then it's going to happen regardless of which route we take to implement the new CP system.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I got exactly what I wanted, actually. More discussion means more ideas, and more ideas means more material to work with. I'm ecstatic that things have been going the way that they have. Now, I'd like to point something out: unless I missed something, Ability doesn't want people to gain CP in every class easily. Even now, it's possible to get CP in everything, it just takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. Considering that CP is no longer nearly as powerful as it was, I'd like to buff it up just a wee bit to make it not only worth having again, but something that rewards long term or high difficulty play. It won't be nearly the game changer that it used to be (as evidenced by the DT to Level 2 change), so it's going to be somewhat easier to gain in harder difficulties.

    Because it's a specialization system at its core. Yes, it's possible to max out CP in every class, but that will take work. With the new system, it would take at least 134 games of Nightmare Speed with each class to build 50 CP from scratch for all 8 class slots. I rewrote the CP system to be an incentive for the player to continue playing and continue playing well, not for it to be just another thing for them to earn and sit on once they get it.

    Hong is correct. No matter what happens, people are going to either A) be selfish or B) have a preferred role that they're skilled at. The CP Rework already has taken a lot of the steam out of A, because now players with CP and players without CP are on a more even playing field. Granted, it's still going to lead to people being selfish, but not nearly as much as before.
  18. Mick

    Mick New Member

    I think making CP "worth it" is the best mindset to have, while not making it so powerful it alienates new players. My earlier wall-o-text post offered some ideas that I think added to yours Kith - I'm kind of disappointed that ONE line was taken out of context by Hong to devalue my thoughts.

    I had said that there should be more than just a recruit/-nm bracket for CP, and that could even be extended to medals too. If we had a bracket of CP or medals that could only be earned in vet or harder, we'd see more vet games hosted in the channel, and we'd create a nice "step ladder" of difficulty to bring new players up to a -nm skill level without throwing them into daunting modes with "pros" yelling at them for merely being ignorant of the mechanics changes from one game mode to another.

    About medals: If CP will no longer decay, but still be hard to attain, I suggest we create a "Silver Star" for each class rather than having mere wins; something that forces players to learn a certain skill that's valuable across classes but "easier" for that one class in particular.

    Say for Engy, keep a pet (XS bot, nexus, or captured unit) alive for a certain amount of time. Or for Assault, get X close-range kills in a game. Medic: Buff or Heal X allies in a game. Obviously you'd have to live to the end to get credit. But these "medals" or what-have-you would promote micromanagement skills, tanking/knife skills, and support skills (respectively) while rewarding the player for learning (or at least acknowledging) these skills. I tried to make my examples achievable by both talent trees like Rifle's as well.

    There are a number of skill tiers aside from "newb" and "pro". This may be one of those time where it's wise NOT to cut out the middle-man.
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'll look at it when I'm not in the middle of moving, Mick. I skimmed it earlier and it looked alright, I just need to give it the time that it deserves before making a full judgement.
  20. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • CN/TW Liaison

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    What about, allowing silver star to be earned by other classes, except Demolitions and Pathfinder because their shields would make it a lot easier?

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