The K Report: Classes

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Due to my recent employment, one of my duties was to examine the aspects of NOTD and make a full report on what I believe needs to be changed to make a more cohesive design and better balance. I'm going to be doing several of these on all aspects of NOTD, but first and foremost are the classes that make up the game. So, that said, welcome to the first K Report.


    Show Spoiler
    Move to Tier 1 so it encourages actual use of the ability as opposed to something that you dump points into so you can access Bloodlust. Adjust damage from 90/180 to 40 / 80 / 120 and add 5/7.5/10 damage per hero level so that the grenades scale, retain the 33% bonus damage vs. light and the critical strike chance.

    Rapid Fire
    Move to Tier 2, adjust from 10/20/30% increase in attack speed to 15/30%.

    Weapon Proficiency
    Move to the Combat Tree for the sake of better design. I know it's nice to have on the Survival Tree, but the bottom line is that the Survival Tree is about more about disables than damage increases, and Weapon Proficiency fits better in the Combat tree because it's about being a DPS. Reduce damage bonus from 7/14% to 5/10% to mitigate the move.

    Precision Shot
    Move from Combat to Survival tree to make Survival more disable-heavy, and increase the unit slow from 30/60% to 35/70%. Reduce energy cost to 10 and apply a damage bonus of 5/10 and a slow bonus of 0.5%/1% per level.

    this thread!


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    Remove the slow. Why was it there in the first place? The Assault is already incredibly slow, he doesn't need to get his MS cut when he's attempting to taunt and kite.

    Suppressive Fire
    Remove the slow. Again, the Assault is extremely slow already, and he doesn't need to go even slower. I would understand if his DPS was earth-shatteringly high as a result of using the skill, but it's not. This is even more important if/when Charge is removed, because then the Arms Assault is going to be slow as fuck for no reason.

    Increase Critical Strike rate by 5/10/15% while Suppressive Fire is active. The bottom line is that the Arms Assault is barely used anymore, and even when he is, he's massively overshadowed by EVERY OTHER DPS CLASS EVER. I think this would be a unique way of increasing his DPS and also giving him more of a unique feel. Assault is the supposed “gun expert”, so it would make sense that he's capable of better aim with automatic weapons than everyone else.

    Originally I thought that Charge had its uses and didn't need re-evaluation, but considering that the Assault's movement would be far less hindered by Suppressive Fire and also because the Heavy Gunner doesn't really have a place tackling people, I believe it needs to be changed to something that suits the Assault more. I personally believe that ArcturusV's Overwatch is vastly appropriate, but others think that PeerawatZ's Total Annihilation would also work well, so I leave it up to the players. Honestly, I think Overwatch would be better because it synergizes well with the rest of the Assault's moveset instead of being "deal a lot of damage to an area" which (to me at least) seems out of place on the Arms Assault.


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    Switch Critical Strike and Scope
    Scope not being in Assassin baffles me, considering it's the “sniper” tree. By extension, Critical Strike not being in the Subtlety tree when Subtlety is for burst damage with rapid fire weapons also baffles me.

    OSOK is gonna take some doing. This is what I've got so far as a rough concept:
    Damage and cooldown based on what rifle is equipped at the time (M45 being the more spammable option, Barrett being the less spammable but FAR more damaging option)
    Expends ammo
    Deals 2% / 6% (M45 and Barrett, respectively) of a boss's total health as bonus damage when used on a boss with Master Assassin
    Slight damage buff so it no longer relies on Critical Strike to be important (mostly Critical Strike was relied on to make it do damage to bosses, but with the new percentage damage bonus then things will be a bit more reasonable)

    All of this combined should make OSOK into a better skill. OSOK has always bothered me because of how it almost relied on Critical Strike to deal decent damage, and considering that Critical Strike and Scope are going to get the switcheroo treatment, now’s the best time to re-evaluate it so it no longer relies on Critical Strike. If anything, I think OSOK should be a guaranteed critical of sorts, considering that the Marksman is expending energy and taking extra time to aim the shot.

    whoo stuff happened over here


    Show Spoiler
    T1 Minelayer
    The same thing that people have been calling for since the last forever: "Lay Mines" and "Create Mines" consolidated into a single talent.

    T1 Reroute (toggle)
    Nite and I were discussing T1 cross tree synergy, and I came up with this. While active, it decreases shield regen, and instead funnels the shield regen into energy regen. The result is something that both trees of Demo can get use out of, and particularly ballsy Fortitude Demos could leave it on and rely on TTD proccing Sadism to restore their shields instead of shield regeneration.

    Demo's base shield regen is 2.5.
    Reroute reduces Shield Regeneration by 50%/75%/100%, so his base shield regen would become 1.25/0.625/0, and his energy regeneration would be increased by 0.75/0.9375/1.25.


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    It’s Me Again
    Needs the nerf bat, badly. Five shots and I'm doing double damage on a consistent basis? And it's passive, too. I've been playing Combat Engie a lot recently and it's been crazy to me that this skill exists in its current iteration. Now, we can take two routes, and I'll leave it up to you guys which one you want:

    Reduce the amount of stacks from 5 to 3. At level 3 that's +60% damage, which is still COMPLETELY BRUTAL, let alone as a passive increase.
    Reduce the damage increase per stack and increase the amount of stacks. You can still use it to ramp up damage vs. a boss, but at least have some balance because you're basically expending an entire ammo clip first so you can deal double damage constantly.

    Also, make IMA's effect be linked to a debuff so weapon splash stops canceling out the effect.

    I’ve cooked up a nice little active to replace it with.
    X-1 Refit
    Level 1 – Gattling Guns
    Good vs. light, decent splash, low damage and rapid attack speed, attacking things makes the Gattling Guns “spin up” and results in a damage ramp-up akin to Void Rays
    Level 2 – Plasma Cannon
    Slow, high damage, 3-3.5 splash radius, ground only. Projectile does not home in on the target it fired upon, and has a travel time of about half of the Stinger. Deals Friendly Fire, so management will often be required.

    Keep in mind, none of these fire on the move. We're keeping that unique trait on the standard armament of the X-1.

    Boom Headshot
    It needs to do something to bosses. My suggestion is have the armor debuff trigger on them and maybe slow them by a modest amount.

    Move the activation hotkey to the X-1. This will encourage players to actually micro the X-1 while using its most powerful ability, and it will also make hotkey screwups for the Engineer less likely (I.E., using Overdrive while no X-1 is present). If possible, I'd like to see the Overdrive hotkey be on the X-1 but take energy on activation from the Engineer. If that is not possible, then we need to assign a new energy cost to it and examine the energy of the X-1.

    The bottom line is that Towers need to kill again. To balance this, the Towers will only function if the Engineer is within an 8 radius of them. We could also potentially explore the option of turning Kill Switch into a Toggle that drains energy per second, and towers have energy capacity that slowly regenerates, and each level of tower increases the maximum energy capacity (I'm thinking something like 40/80 energy maximum, towers when built start with half capacity). No friendly fire on the toggle because it would severely harm the Tower's current utility.

    Plasma Det
    Needs a shorter fuse and a smaller AOE (3.5).


    Show Spoiler
    Needs to proc on ALL KILLS made by fire sources on the Flamethrower, not just the ones from Burst Fire, and it needs to only affect the Flamethrower when the MK-3 is equipped. Otherwise, he turns into a class that doesn't really have a unique DPS role because he can switch to something else (generally better weapons).

    Burst Fire
    Needs to be only castable with a Flamethrower equipped. Why can I make a Marksman Rifle belch fire?

    H-3 Igniter
    Instead of increasing range, it needs to widen projectiles. Increasing range actually hurts the MK-3 Flamethrower because of how the projectiles work. The projectiles don't go any further, but the target aquisition range increases, meaning that the Flamethrower starts shooting earlier, when the target is further away. Also, make Level 3 of this capable of hitting air. Please?

    Fix its nasty habit of dealing more damage to the Flamethrower based on ammo boosts. Just make it outright cost hitpoints as opposed to dealing x amount of damage to the Flamer. Could also use either an energy or health cost reduction, but that's just my personal preference and may be disregarded.


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    Needs to not have perfect/air vision, as far as I'm aware there's a flag for this in the editor. Also needs to share vision (easiest solution is just make the Floodlights vision belong to the NPC friendly faction).

    Nanites Upgrade
    After extensive re-evaluation, Nanites needs to only affect Mechanical/Robotic. My original intention of this ability was to only affect the Technician and the Drones. I didn't consider the ramifications of making it heal all things because I wasn't fully in the swing of designing things as I am now, and I have since realized it vastly overshadows the Field Aid Medic because she's basically regulated to healing Cripples and not much else. Antivenom can now be dispersed by the Chemical Expert and Open Wounds fixed by the vast amount of Bandages present on the map and available via drops. I think it still needs to heal Thors because the Engineer is no longer present in the storyline to repair them.

    March of the Machine
    Needs to have the new targeting system implemented.


    Show Spoiler
    Trick Shot
    Needs an updated projectile. At the moment, they’re Glaive Wurms.

    Fast Five
    Needs to be limited to five shots and the buff needs to last longer than half a second.

    Full Throttle
    Needs to be reworked into a straight upgrade to Sprint, I.E., it actually replaces the Sprint ability (like how Improved Focus Fire replaces/upgrades Focus Fire)

    Level 1 - 70% movement speed increase
    Level 2 - 105% movement speed increase
    Level 3 - 140% movement speed increase

    All levels apply “mobhack”, I.E., the ability to pass through enemies without collision. The knockback was dropped because of the potential to “herd” enemies into groups.

    Forward Observer

    See this thread

    Chemical Expert

    Show Spoiler
    Sorely needs a movespeed buff and a small energy regen buff, and the casting range of his abilities need to be fixed/increased. Base armor is too high (implies tank status, is currently higher than the Assault's base armor) and needs to be reduced and exchanged for movespeed.


    Show Spoiler
    Surgical Laser
    Innate: 20 hitpoints healed, 10 second cooldown, 20 energy cost, 1 ailment removed
    Level 1: 30 hitpoints healed, 8 second cooldown, 18 energy cost, 1 ailment removed
    Level 2: 40 hitpoints helaed, 6 second cooldown, 16 energy cost, 1 ailment removed
    Level 3: 50 hitpoints healed, 4 second cooldown, 14 energy cost, 2 ailments removed

    The ailments removed thing is in reference to different kinds, not stacks. Level 3 SL will be able to cure Open Wound and Cripple in one shot, but not two stacks of Open Wound.

    Needs to affect all units in a radius, something reasonable like 6.

    Needs a new name. Tosh's legacy must be wiped out if we are to obtain maximum polish.

    Volitile Injection
    To make it actually worth using on Bosses, make it negate health regeneration (but not disable the invulnerability protocols for bosses like Cronus and Athena).


    Show Spoiler
    Change the attack speed bonus to a movespeed one, keep the same percentages. Will make the Recon into less of a nub magnet because "it's a cyber ninja" and discourage people to go Rambo Cloakcon. Will also make the Mobcon's entire purpose of "moving fast" go better.

    Psi Ops

    Show Spoiler
  2. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I agree with all of these except removing the movespeed debuff from suppressive fire. Also, I thought about this after you asked a few weeks ago and then promptly forgot: switching precision shot and weapons proficiency does make sense, but it means that survival rifleman will be even more energy starved.

    Edit: A survival rifleman would be using traps for mobs and prec shot for bosses, meaning he would actually be more than an extra gun versus bosses (an issue that I have had many times in the past).
  3. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    As he who loves the Flamethrower. Yes, for the love of the Gods, yes, give me some energy regen.

    Reasoning why: Unlike other "Caster" classes, the Flamethrower is entirely built upon chaining skills. Simply put Smite, by itself, isn't really useful. Faith by itself isn't useful. Shatter by itself isn't useful. Burst Fire by itself isn't useful. Inferno by itself isn't useful. The ability for a Flamethrower to adequately (And I do mean Adequately, not Moon Shatteringly) be a force on the team requires them to be able to chain skills for effectiveness.

    While having a class that can go all out then needs to cool down for a bit is a concept that exists already. SubMM being what comes to mind here... Consider the Flamethrower is the only Heavy Marine in his storyline and the only marine that doesn't go down like a potato the moment anything gets near them... having a "cool down time" doesn't really work well.

    Now I'm not saying that he should be able to endlessly chain everything forever into one perpetual motion fiery death machine. But being able to do SOMETHING on a low energy basis would be nice. e.g. like how a Combat Rifleman can pretty much always use Bloodlust, though ideally they want to be able to chain with Focused Fire, Grenades, Precision Shots, etc.

    I'm hesitant to buff Faith if the energy issue is solved. Monkey with one thing at a time and see how it effects things. I think having just that small bit more cushioning to Shatter behind a Faith more reliably might solve the issue.

    Assault Notes: The slow is the reason why I hate the Assault's Taunt. It's a horrible idea. Kill it with fire. Time travel back a year or two to set fire to whoever thought that was something that needed to be done.

    Suppressive Fire is unnecessarily nerfed. I don't think it really needs the movespeed jacking either. Pointlessly burning sheer amounts of ammo instead of damage buffed ammo is generally punishment enough. Giving Suppressive Fire a Crit buff is perfectly fine.

    One thing I would like to mention is Charge. I LIKE Charge, for it's novelty and what it does... however does it really belong in the Arms Assault repertoire? It seems more like it's a throwback that doesn't necessarily need to be there, like the SubComm and Perception. It FEELS like the only reason Charge is there is because the Assault used to have Chainsaw before all the Fortdemos got pissy about Time to Die sucking and stole Chainsaw's mechanic. So you decided to have something kinda Chainsaw Spirit based, thus charge. Considering the rest of the tree is all about sitting back like Arnold from Commando/Predator and spraying bullets, or Stallone from Rambo III... it just seems... out of place.

    Since you mentioned it before Kith when I was doing the SubComm reworking... replace Charge with Overwatch?

    Other notes:

    Sad about Precision Shot moving off the Combat Rifle. I agree with it. Just a moment of mourning.

    Worried about the ability of Combat Riflemen to whore up the early parts of the game as even level 1 in Grenades will handle most early mobs in Easy Company. Not entirely certain that's a bad thing. Just a thought.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    As for the energy concerns of Precision Shot and Sonic Trap: Like Ozy himself mentioned, traps are for mobs and PS is for bosses. Repulse, being the shiny T3 that it is, is sort of for both. The switch will make Combat into the definitive DPS tree and Survival into the definitive Disable/Support tree.

    I'm not. I don't use Faith when I Order, ever. An accidental press of a hotkey shearing off 50% of my health bothers the everloving piss out of me. When used at the wrong time, it can get the Flamethrower killed instantly. This wouldn't bother me if the Flamethrower didn't explode into a ball of napalm upon death, potentially murdering allies as well. I'm all for the reward of awesome damage at the risk of getting yourself killed, but it really doesn't sit well with me that the Flamethrower's death can lead to complete game failure because of the Napalm aftermath and the loss of the tank.

    Also, about Charge. I actually like Charge a whole damn lot. I know it doesn't -really- fit with the Assault's skillset or overall feel, but I still like it. Tackling bosses and dropping Suppressive/Frenzy on them is fun as hell, and it's also outright useful as a movement tool (something that the Assault can definitely make use of considering how slow he is). IMO, Charge is one of the things that makes Demotank/Arms Assault Nightmare runs possible.
  5. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Faith only shaves off 50% sans ammo mods.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    A typo. I apologize. Thank you for correcting me.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well Faith already gives +10 armor, clears off Wounds and Venom. Deals heavy damage, heals your allies. I don't spam it all over the place necessarily but I do use it quite a bit during the Lab Holdout and it's tendency for point blank troll spawns, and during Perses's fight where the boss can't really hurt you anyway and it's nice to be able to clear out the random troll Huggers/agrons and assorted creeps, and help heal your squishies a bit while Perses chews on them.

    But I'll chalk that one up to differences in opinion instead of a clear X Sucks mindset.

    And yeah, Charge is fun. And the speed is useful at times. Seems we agree the point is at least a valid one. Though no real desire to change it necessarily.


    Though to be honest I really would have liked room to put Overwatch on the Arms Assault. That was just too much of a fun idea to be killed off, especially since it was as good as it was for Arms Assaults.

    Edit: Skill edited in just so no one has to go looking to remember what I meant necessarily:

    Tier 3-


    35 Energy, 30 second cool down, 35 second duration. Casting Range 15.

    Commando marks out a certain location for maximum carnage. Weapons trained on that location benefit from his coordination and experience. Effects all friendlies who are firing in the area, Mears, Bots, Mindjacked, Marines, etc. AoE Radius 8. Note: Effects the area, not just whatever units are currently within said area.

    For the duration of Overwatch all enemies take an additional 25% damage, critical hits slow targets by 50%. Critical hits on slowed targets stun for .3 seconds. Critical hits on stunned targets receive 1 stack of Open Wounds.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I feel that you have taken a very NA approach to the retooling of trees and skills.
    You will find that on EU we use skills very very differently and place different values on them.

    As an example, noone bothers to get precision shot as the damage is lower than that of Grenade besides having no AoE. The slow is also not useful given how queen is immune to it and general dps with bloodlust + grenade is infinitely higher that you won't need the slow.
    I.e. people go 3-3-0-2-1
    Moving weapon proficiency to Combat would make it completely overpowered in that regard, considering noone on EU would hae taken precision shot in the first place.
    Bloodlust + halved reload and passive damage buff while you got passive crit and attack speed? Hell yeah for players, hell no for balance.

    I agree with removing the ms from taunt, but not the ms from supp fire. You have charge on T3 to move around if things get hairy. Otherwise it would serve little purpose.

    Agree with changes, but how are you reworking Master Assassin in the light of changes to OSOK without making having 2 AssaMM raping every boss there is within seconds?

    Reroute sounds interesting. How would you rework the lay mines part? I posted a proposal in the demolitions talents thread on how the combined T1s could look.

    As others and myself have posted, replace satchel with either pipe bomb or sticky bomb. Its totally surpassed by armageddon at present.

    IMA would need a nerf only when the splash cancel gets fixed, otherwise it is fine actually.
    If you somehow manage to fix the splash cancel that's been around forever, I would maybe reduce damage to max 3 stacks instead of 5 and the progression to 5/10/15 instead of 5/10/20.

    X1, as long as you leave the current option (medium firing twin cannons) in as well I would have no issue with it.
    BHS is a difficult one. If you reduce boss armor, you harm the team vs queen. If you slow the boss, again queen is immune. Given that Engineer is EC/AC only now that's something to consider.
    Maybe the easiest would be to make queen affected by slowing effects given how foresight aura already does so and is the only skill which does.

    Agree on OD.

    Towers, I suggested something in the kill switch thread which sounds like what you might be thinking of.

    Plasma det - shorter fuse definitely, smaller AoE maybe by 1, not 1.5.

    Disagree on the energy regen buff. He already received one recently and is a beast as a result. Any more just means whoever hits the hotkeys the fastest to spam skills gets the most gain out of it. This is a Strategy Survival RPG not a bloody arcade game.

    Faith, just make it allow shatter to heal you if the target is faith stunned, which at the moment it does not. Other than that, maybe make it drain HP only and leave shields intact (if any). That would give it a lot of utility given that it can be used then with nano shield without risk of OHKing yourself (something that nanoshield currently does to you as Flamethrower)

    Oh and move the damn hotkey of either Faith or Inferno. They share the same one even though there's space on the card.

    Gunslinger's only energy cost is fast five and the occasional use of StM, which is negligible. Make trick shot a toggle as well and cost 0.5 energy per shot. It would also justify his high base energy regen and make his Gunslinger tree less passive ands boring besides being ridiculously OP vs mobs.

    I see you didn't mention other classes, such as Medic having 1 more active talent on the tree than there are hotkeys for.
    As both ArcturusV, myself and others have suggested, get rid of the T1 Heal which noone uses once you get weave/restoration and is pointless on a nano cross-skill as well.
    The only purpose it serves is as noob trap and the comfort of "oh this is sc2 i got a heal beam"
    Seriously, its a pointless skill.

    I posted a medic rework in the Questions and Suggestions topic. ... 76#pid6476
  9. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I see too much "useless skill; doesn't work on Queen." Guess what! There are other bosses besides Eos.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Indeed, but the classes we are talking about tend to be mainly EC/AC classes.

    And the final boss is usually where you want your skills to count.

    Eos is immune to any slow effects bar Foresight Aura (a sec team skill btw)

    Perses is immune to stuns and slows as his tentacles keeping striking you.
  11. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Doesn't mean you should base the whole talent around two scenarios. Not every talent has to be useful 100% of the time, but likewise, talents don't need to only be useful at the end-boss.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I looked at everything strictly from a design standpoint, not from how the skills are used. I'm aware of how EU does things, and the bottom line is that the Rifleman is stronger from a design standpoint if Weapons Prof is in the Combat tree.

    A valid tactic, but there are more bosses than Eos.

    Then we rebalance the skill. I've already suggested a nerf to the damage bonus considering it's going to be put into Combat.

    You're assuming that the Assault would have no use for Charge if the ms slow on Suppressive Fire was removed, which honestly just confuses the fuck out of me because Charge has a lot more utility than just "work around Suppressive Fire's ms loss".

    Put both mine skills into one talent for the tree. Simple as that.

    I'm leaving Satchel's replacement/rework up to Reaper. He's got better ideas than I do.

    I can gain a 100% damage buff after shooting something five times. The only thing that even comes close to that much damage bonus as a T1 is the Commando's Surgical Strike, and that's an active ability that also has a penalty period after it's used. No, it absolutely goddamn isn't "fine" because it is batshit bonkers powerful.

    Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've managed to maintain my maximum stack of IMA with the Chaingun on a regular basis.

    The standard armament would still be an option, yes.

    I don't see Laser use vs. the Queen much nowadays, what with Laser Designator, Heartbeat Sensor, AP, and the other armor debuffs that get thrown at the Queen on a regular basis. People avoid the laser because it eats ammo and it's only good vs. a handful of bosses, and even then they're usually completely covered in debuffs so it's less effective anyways.

    Yeah, I really don't know why she's immune to so many slowing effects. Considering how large and powerful she is (especially after Frenzy's buff) and considering that she RUNS THE FUCK AWAY, it really bothers me that most slowing effects just outright don't apply. I was going to bring that up as a major problem in the Easy Company report.

    Similar, but not the same.

    Plasma Det is Radius 4, meaning that 3.5 is a .5 radius reduction.

    Just about everyone who has played or does play Order Flamer has QQ'd about the energy regeneration. Considering that he's Alpha Company's tank and that he -has- to use his skills to gain durability, I don't think it's too unreasonable. On top of all that, Righteousness is only worth a shit if you hit multiple enemies with it, so you're still going to have to aim the damn thing or you'll be using your energy for nothing.

    Trick Shot does not need to be a toggle, and if you're not using Fast Five on a constant basis, then you are playing the Pathfinder wrong. On top of that, if you're not using Shoot to Maim to stagger Agrons, you are doing it even more wrong.

    Psi Ops and Medic are getting their own seperate rework topics as the Forward Observer did, and the Recon is fine as-is.

    Rifleman is all campaigns. Engineer is indeed EC/AC, and the BHS armor debuff being applied to Queen would be absolutely amazing for everything except the Laser. On top of that, BHS isn't a passive ability, so if the team is using lasers, the Engineer can just opt to not use it.

    Pretty much this. I'm going for general utility because there are always going to be exceptions to the rule.
  13. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I'd like to see Reflexes replaced on the Mobility tree for Recons. The only time I use it for anything other than a stepping stone for Escape/Cloak is when I'm playing Surveillance and trying to get my Reaper to level 10. I'll put 3 in it so whoever my Recon is following basically has a meat shield while I cheese and powerlevel the hell out of my Reaper. Still haven't gotten the poor thing past level 9. :(
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I once got a handful of DTs and had a Reaper at milbase, finally hitting Level 15 when Eos bit the dust. I had a screenshot somewhere but alas it is missing now.

    But anyways, I actually like Reflexes. The only change I could see being made to it is to have the attack speed bonus traded for a movespeed one? I'm not sure. I didn't really see an issue with any part of the Recon when I reviewed it. Reflex's attack speed increase synergizes well with Backstab, leading the Recon to have something of a Supplemental DPS role in addition to his more obvious support roles if used properly.
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Thanks for the detailed reply Kithrixx, I did make a few minor edits to it while you were replying I guess.

    The IMA part I said was fine only if the splash still broke the bonus, not fine with the bug was fixed. The reduction I edited in was 5/10/15 to reduce from 5/10/20 and max 3 stack for 45% damage bonus

    Trick I also amended to 0.5 from 1. As PF I and others spam FF constantly yet never have energy problems. StM is used sparingly and for short bursts only.

    Flamethrower: I realize a lot of people commented on dreadful regen but I am very certain those complaints were prior to the regeneration buff. I have played it extensively in AC both pre and post buff and find it not actually needing an Arc to power your needs anymore at present. Buffing it further as I mentioned would go overboard.
    It may be possible that some of the feedback you refer to may be pre buff or people's recollection of FT pre-buff (with little awareness that is has indeed been buffed)

    Plasma det is my mistake, for some reason the tooltip in my mind read 5 instead of 4. In that case 3.5 is fine.

    Assault - Charge is also useful for reloads and aiding teammates and general movement, but it is actually skipped by a number of people already as cross classing into Protection for bonus armor is preferrable when you move slow with Supp Fire and become vulnerable. Removing the ms debuff would maybe not have any further effect on choices, but personally it would make me feel Charge losing one of its many uses, which is getting out when you activated Supp fire and got more on your hands than you can handle. I do take your point though. Still, +150% as (250% as) for a spammable T1 active with longer duration than cooldown should have some sort of minor drawback.
    Besides I do feel that having duration longer than cooldown and the effect not stacking is quite a poor design choice that you could address.

    MM: How will you rework Master Assassin that it won't end up as a 2 AssMM game who kill any boss within a few seconds?
  16. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Considering I can still play Cengy and reach level 12+ without ever firing a single shot, something still needs to be done. IMA is clearly overpowered since lvl 3 IMA makes a field engy outdps all but OpComms vs Eos. This weapon refit should have the engineer actually "building" the new guns on the X1, rather than them instantly poofing on.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I would prefer that the Weapons Refit skill be on the X-1 itself as opposed to on the Combat Engineer. I was toying with the concept of Overdrive doing different things based on what weapon loadout the X-1 was equipped with at the time. Any opinions on that?
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    IMA doesn't need to be nerfed THAT hard. I can understand the design behind it and appreciate it, so I'd prefer it be one or the other.

    Trick Shot doesn't need an energy cost. It just needs to be implemented properly.

    You're not supposed to have energy problems. He's got low maximum, high regen. FF is for general use, and StM is for bosses and high priority targets.

    People complain about it to this day, so apparently it's still a problem.

    The minor drawback is that you're burning through ammo because you're attacking at 250% speed.

    It's actually great design. It makes it less "spam Suppressive Fire until the end of time" and more "pay attention to when the buff ends so you can conserve energy better". Also, if it stacked with itself, ohgod +300% attack speed

    I probably won't. The AssMM is for nuke damage which is, by definition, supposed to be effective vs. bosses.
  19. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Interesting report, here's my take on each idea/proposed change.

    Partially agree, though grenades in their current form ARE used heavily, as long as you A) Have a combat rofl and B) They know what to do. Grenades are mainly used for packs of zombies/ghouls/mutas, but most importantly for larva mobs (venom worms) and for eggs from elie/infestors. Moving them to tier 1 may encourage combat rifle to whore early mobs, something I'm not too excited about (even as combat rofl myself).

    Also somewhat agree, it does put off delaying dps, but means I can put of the decision to get it based on weapons available. I skip this if no Barret/HMG comes available, but I still like having this in tier 1 to speed up flamer/snipers.

    Agree on both, but will need to lower Pshot energy cost, as mentioned, this will make Survival massively energy starved, no amount of energy management will compensate for 5 active skills you want to be using all at once to handle various enemies.



    Instead of win more (more crits), instead make Suppressive Fire increase the weapons splash. He's unleashing a hail of bullets, with not much regard to accuracy, makes sense that hes going to simply hit more stuff.

    Disagree, Subtlety is both burst damage and scout. Scope/Shadowstep/Stealth all play into this role of being the best scout in the game.

    Critical I see as the assassin becoming better at careful aiming, leading to better hits and OSOKs

    Since I don't play osok much, no comment here.

    Yep, agree since forever

    Interesting idea, the only question I would ask is how this interacts with arc reactors. If it channels ALL the shield regen into energy regen, arc reactor becomes insane on exploder, allowing near infinite mine/geddon/FV spam. With 2 arcs, he will automatically have more energy regen then Rifleman, and borderline Pathfinder. Combined with SS or battery... I would cover all of apollo in mines :D :D :D

    I'm assuming the leveling will change the efficiency of the Reroute (level one converts .33 of shield regen to energy, lvl 2 .66, lvl 3, 1)
    Prefer Option 2, so engie can decide to use fast weapons for quick build up (which all inevitably have low damage (SMG/M5/Gauss)) or wait LONG time to build to massive damage with slow weapons (Bar/Sniper/Stinger)


    Interesting, I like gatling gun. Plasma Cannon is nice, but like stinger, you will need to deactive auto attack, in order to prevent the infamous corpse ghoul spawn -> Charge, Autofiring stinger takes out half the team.
    Disagree, MAYBE add the armor debuff to bosses, but atm, Boom Headshot is easily one of the most powerful crowd control abilities in the game. It has the the LONGEST aoe stun, nothing else comes close (12 seconds might as well be an eternity). It is very spammable, and combined with X-1 bot, you can near stunlock/solo most mobs, especially ones that come from one direction (airlock comes to mind). The stun is doubly potent when you stun heavy units that reach the front and hold up the entire mob behind them (Agrons mainly).

    Agree, though like you say, might be tricky with the bot. This also removes any need to energy manage engineer, he will only have Boom Headshot left as a ability to even use on a regular basis (You won't do refit much, and a good combat shouldn't be losing their bot at all, at most like 2-3 times in an entire game).
    Tower do need to kill again, but yes, there needs to be someway to limit them from being: Place and win 3 free levels while I run off and kill another mob. Good engies were defined by NOT using towers to whore like madmen and getting super fast nexus. The Field Support should be just that, field support, not aoe armageddon that competes with exploder on who can power level more.

    Since I barely play any of the above classes, no comment at this point
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Hello Fellow Arc, one of your comments stuck out to me:

    (About the SubMM and switching Scope/Crit)

    Disagree, Subtlety is both burst damage and scout. Scope/Shadowstep/Stealth all play into this role of being the best scout in the game.

    Now... I'm not disagreeing with the fact that the SubMM is basically the Rogue Operative Number One. James Bond of the NOTDverse. He not only has high burst damage, but is the best runner, scout, and assassin in game.

    The question that I am thinking of is... Should that be the case? Is not that the role of the Recon? At least the Scout part. Either through static target acquisition via Surveillance, or behind the lines sneaking stuff via Mobility. Not that I think we could really change that up. Removing Scope would just mean that SubMMs would have to start using the massively underutilized Road Flares after all.

    But still... it was a thought. It occurred to me. It might even be a valid point somewhere in there.

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