The Fort Demo and Time to Die

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Most feedback that I get on the Fort Demo is that he's strictly better than the Asstank because he can just... do more. Fort has access to more damage and can facetank for as long as he has the energy to do it, which isn't hard to come by if you time your stuff properly. Fort has a better disable and a better taunt, on top of that.

    So I'm going to submit that Time to Die should multiply shield armor only, not life armor, to scale the Fortitude Demolitions back a little from being better in literally every aspect over the Assault.

    This will, of course, make the Fort Demo harder to use in the context of facetanking, but he was never supposed to be a facetanker in the first place. The only one who is ever supposed to facetank for extended periods is the Assault - the other tanks have very specific circumstances in which they're supposed to facetank, and they require some sort of skill (Flamethrower building up armor stacks) or do so in a dangerous manner (Technician flipping out and killing people) because they have utility or damage to back them up whereas the Assault largely... doesn't.

    Really, I can only see this directly effecting the Queen fight, making it require more kiting and either more kills to charge up shields via Sadist or more Medic support. With this change, I am debating on switching Sadist's ratios around as well to make the shield more sustainable, possibly removing the health gain altogether and instead giving a minor (we're talking like 0.25 at level 1 and 0.5 at level 2) energy restoration instead of health. Energy restoration would make hybrid builds more viable as well, but I'm unsure how far I want to take the concept.

    Anyways. That's what I've been thinking about recently, what with the transfer to NOTD 2 and all. Let me know what you guys think.
  2. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    I doubt TTD not buffing life armor will change much. Not for people that know what they do at least, so in a way it will force people to learn what they do or die so kewl.

    Restoring energy via sadist would make him even more OP solo than he is or value would need to be laughably small. Life gain off sadist is only ever usefull anyway when you end up stacked with venom somehow, so i wouldn't miss it.

    To get him in line with assault nerf of IYF is probably only way but shortening duration will break him as he got nothing to fullfill gap (assu got charge to stun stuff for when taunt stops and is still on cd).
    Changing reduction values could be a thing but it will only really change how few types of enemies are handled and maybe mess up tanking of huge ass hordes.
  3. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    Demo has Look! to bridge the taunt CD gaps if one was introduced, Nik.

    I don't mind a Sadist buff, its certainly the least useful kit in FortDemo's tree at the moment and could use the buff. I still don't see myself getting Sadist over maxing IAYF, shield armor or Look! to be honest since Sadist is way too unreliable before TTD is available.
  4. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    Look! would need a change to cooldown then or duration what would make it probably too good in relation to "50% chance for some of them to attack it" part of it's capability which is damn good already.
    Look also got this thing that it works on same target only one every 2+ min.

    So it could work as a set of changes but simply putting a gap into IYF will be mess
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I don't think IAYF or Look! need fiddling with to have a perfect cycle. The point is to nerf the demo, not buff him.

    That said, the values that I'm looking at for Sadist restoration are 1.5/3 shields and 0.2/0.4 energy.
  6. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Honestly, I don't see any reason for TTD to do anything with armor, shield or life. As a new player, the way the tanks were explained to me (in their form back then) was that the demotank was for mobs and killing things and mobility while the asstank was for bosses. I'm fine with the demotank being able to deal with bosses when played perfectly and/or with medic/zoo support, but I see no reason for him to have a massive armor buff for bosses as his T3. It would make more sense to me as just a way to kill whatever smaller mobs are attacking him, stun the bigger ones, and trip sadist.

    I think switching it to shield armor instead of life armor would be a decent start, but honestly I can't remember the last time I took a hit to life after I had my T3 as a demotank when I wasn't playing a solo game.
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Well, keep in mind - this is also going hand-in-hand with the Medic rework, which means Nanoshield will be much less common.
  8. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Instead of nerfing the demo why not upgrade the ass? Ass is NEVER used in vet/nm games as tank if that doesn't show u what a piece he is as tank -compared- to demo nothing else will, his skills on assault ( other than harvest which is crap ) are far better than demos offensive skills which means he I'll "never" be used in anything but pub games as tank.
    No offense to anyone cuz I love u all but tank ass is garbage no matter how much u use him or like him, he is only capable of ranking queen and literally nothing else.
  9. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    *tanking queen*
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... You're kidding, right? Asstank is easymode for Alpha and Asstank is pretty spiffy for Sec. Charge, when used properly, makes bossfights a joke.

    I mean, at that point you're better off not facetanking at all and just going Arms, but that's okay. NOTD is supposed to be a game about skill, not taking as much damage as possible.

    That said.

    Demotank needs nerfing because he can do everything the other tanks do, but better. In several ways, he's a better tank than both the Flamethrower and the Technician, so I want to tone him down as much as possible.
  11. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    I wish to express the above as Fortitude Demolition is not really better in every aspect over the Assault, not even comparable between different skill trees (DPS wise). Multiple peoples like niktos, chuckwing.... etc have already done the no medic EC NM run without the demo getting any hits or break their shields. So why need to nerf a shield based tank as he is not as invincible as the ass tank? (or DPSive as the arms ass)

    Ass tank makes every tanking a joke, that's why it's a magical sure win if you have an ass tank in any storyline (except survival). You can just stand there and tank like an idiot with any armor when you have tier 3 and with a medic just restore and remove your ailments, not to mention extra stuns from charge. Ass is not commonly used as tank because the Arms tree is providing much more dps rather than having demo going for Explosive tree. I don't know why most people hates Harvester Of Sorrow for no reason because of +40% crit for 30 sec ?


    Probably the increased life armor is powerful, I'm okay with multiplying shield armor instead of life armor on demo since shield is fort demo's main trait. Beside even with the reworks in medic shields, engineer still can heal the demo's shield with not much trouble.

    As for sadist to restore energy is slightly overpowered, since he can literally recover the used energy for TTD. Charge into mass zombies with TTD on, and came back with more energy recovered than used. I'm totally unsure of how SC2 deal with decimals and rounding, but it would be a serious matter if those values 0.2/0.4 got rounded to 1 or 0 energy upon kill trigger. (since decimals are hidden from display)
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Demo tank is less likely to receive ailments (partially because his focus on shields and partially because low damage/high attack speed enemies like parasites and infested marines kill themselves on his shields), has a better disable (Look >>>>>>>>>>> Charge), is faster, has a better taunt, and can facetank just as well as the Assault can with Time to Die active. Also, he can heal himself with his Tier 3 and Sadist.

    Yes, the Fortitude Demolition is better than the Protection Assault in almost every aspect.
  13. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Demotank also really isn't at all harder to play than asstank. He's much easier. Playing demo you essentially just hold down V. If you want to you can also use look and TTD, one of which is a simple button push and the other is a single target. Assault has to manage his cooldowns from the very first point he gets straight to the queen fight. He also has to worry about his cooldown on charge, relatively low mana pool, and ailments. Finally, charge is a damn hard skill to use at its full potential. It is the only ability in the game that is cast in its specific manner, it puts you directly where your allies are trying to shoot for a tenth of a second, and it conflicts with your T3 making you decide with each enemy whether you want to take the hit to keep your armor stacks up for the next threat, or deal with the present enemy.
  14. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    !!! heresy demo is not just push 'v'
    It's 'v'+'s'+dddddddddddddddddddddddd

    But on a more serious note, i pick demo over ass tank in ec as it is easier to keep team safe. On maxed squad rating muta wave with asstank NEEDs a mobcon or people will get owned in a bunch. Demo keeps them fine on his own.

    For hordes if there is medic both can pretty much stand and rub it with face, sooner or later medic will grow hatred towards assu tho.
    If there is no med, demo got it easier on smaller stuff like dome A. They both don't want to tank stuff like dome C (beastlings owning face)

    For bosses:
    Assu gets a short end of stick for tart, his taunt can't lower damage of beastlings into boundaries of RA.
    Erebos is easier for demo also as he ignores armor so you either got RA or tank on taunt values.
    Asstank can't go hunt meno, slowblob and even if he catches up to meno will be ooe before it dies.
    For eos asstank wins EZ, unless no clue how to handle frenzy (it will kill clueless demo even faster).

    So welp, nerf beastlings ! But really, thinking of it now their dmg going up to 150 was kicking already lying down asstank kinda, if it was 140 he could use same trick as demo (wear ra+taunt=profit).

    And as i said before, demo will be fine, gaining energy from sadist is a buff to compensate a nerf that is close to null (+hp from sadist is like never usefull). So in the end you are buffing it for ppl that can ride it, and people that can't die with it anyway even now.
  15. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    Look! - Unit stare (stun) for 2 sec and a 50/50 chance of going for the target. Cast range about 5-7.
    Charge - 100 (150 to massive) damage and knocking back all affected units up to 12 range, stunning them for 4 sec.

    You tell me, a 100% knock back to all affected unit (including massives and bosses) VS a 50/50 chance of going back the maximum cast range of Look!, which one has better disable skills ? Also once both get tier 3, demo facetank with TTD for 15 seconds VS ass tank face tank infinitely ?

    If it is under the right person with the right skills, that is. If the player use him poorly, he is still a chew toy to any mobs. A whole different story for ass tank. Once the ass tank gets his tier 3, he was never a chew toy, regardless of how average the player is.

    I've seen more demo death to Eos instead of having an ass tank easily died to Eos. So why not try to make ass tank more interesting instead ? It could be ass tank skills are quite dull by just mainly squeeze all the life armor out of it.

    Not only V, you have to spam knife (D) and hold position (S) as well. Without D is obvious getting pushed and raped, without S will drive the demo back into the team if he is reloading.

    Ass tank has only 2 active skills:
    taunt (10 EN, last 7 sec, 12 sec CD)
    charge (20 EN, stun for 4 sec, 5 sec CD)

    No need to worry for the low charge cooldown, and addition to the long stun. Queen fight for ass tank is like a beating him with a toy hammer, as long as the ass tank focuses on not getting tonnes of ailments, he is practically 100% fine. Low mana pool (max 120) but higher energy regen than demo, this can be easily resolved with Energy Battery, which is very sufficient for only 2 skills with light/average cooldown. All the ass tank need to worry is the ailments stacks only.

    But it's a great disabling skill, and the only skills that knock back and stuns everything. The conic trap skill does not knock back and stuns massive and bosses.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Why do I always have to argue everything? Why can't people just take my word for it for once?

    Okay, first off, you're leaving out information. You forgot to mention that Look! effectively stuns an entire screen's worth of enemies, whereas Charge only works on stuff it hits. To build on that, you are vastly underestimating the utility of having a cast range rather than having to stun things literally with your face. You are also vastly underestimating how much finesse Charge takes to use.

    Look! may only have a 50/50 chance of proccing its forced attack, but if it fails, you can just cast it again. It's not like you're right up in their face, it's suuuuuper easy to keep things well away from you thanks to it having a rather good cast range.

    Assuming he's even taking hits considering he is farting lightning and stuns.

    Yeah, I don't really care about the people who use him poorly. When used effectively, he is very easily the best tank in the game.

    There's nothing really wrong with the Asstank, though. There is a role he sets out to fill as the "starter tank", and he does it just fine. Other than Charge, he's not really got anything going on in terms of skills, and that's perfectly okay. NOTD 2 will see a Variant Tier 3 that gives him more options, but for right now there's not really anything that needs to be done to give him a boost.

    And the handful of bosses we have that ignore armor.

    The only reason it does knock back and stun on all units is because the Asstank is putting himself directly in the line of fire. It's also literally the only thing that he has that's useful on higher difficulties when more enemies and more bosses ignore armor and hit harder.
  17. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Ass has to worry about shriek/frenzy, demo does not.

    No you don't, you could just as easily kite. And I was ignoring things that both classes have to do, such as knifing, positioning, reloading, listening to teammates, not taking a nap.

    You're first of all assuming that the only enemies you have to worry about were stunned by charge, when in reality your main threats are all the other ones that charge you in the five seconds in-between. Queen fight for asstank is worrying about shrieks and frenzies, something demo tank (in the current state of the game) doesn't give a fuck about. You're also assuming the player has 9 int, which while usually true at higher levels, is not something normally assumed when designing and balancing.

    If you use it right.

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  18. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    why is IYF so vastly superior to taunt? Why isn't the opposite?
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Because the Demo is supposed to kite more.
  20. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I'm afraid this logic doesn't make any sense to me. Can you explain it a little better?

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