Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Feb 20, 2012.
Serious? Sigh. I thought the numbers would be reinstated with the addition of a "safe" option.
I figured the two Options were:
High Splash AoE, Lower Damage
High Single Target, No AoE.
i.e. One is for Hordes, another is for bosses / Heavy Targets
The fact that the Anti-Material Rounds / Cannon has a rather low range doesn't make it effective at destroying equipment either. I don't recall if it has a Bonus VS Mechanical, though it should get one.
No bonuses, lower firing rate, half range and no hitting air. Kind of bad for a single target weapon.
I had assumed its purpose was to be an Heavy Single Target Weapon instead of an AoE Mobber; Its clear that it isn't.
If anything the AP shells should have MORE range than the HE ones. AP weaponry is generally of a higher velocity, and effective at far greater ranges. The AP should be devastating, to a single target. The HE should be devastating, to hordes. Likewise a smart tech could use HE shells aimed at athena horde to kill the cell structure, then quickly switch to AP rounds for the 10 sec of weakness, for Maximum damage.
What Nite just said.
Nite has it correct, as usual. AP is supposed to be the single target heavy hitter, but less overall damage compared to the splash because it's the "safer" option. The HEHF rounds, by comparison, chew up mobs like candy and are also still effective vs. bosses thanks to the DoT of Open Wound stacks. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Currently, as is, "The Anti-Material Rounds" is extremely underwhelming, and if its intended to be kept as it is currently, is in desperate need of a new name.
Black Shuck High Explosive Rounds and Mauthe Dhoog Armor Piercing Shells.
Isn't the reason we lost the cool name because someone complained about having things named "Black".
It's still Black Dog to me.
*waits for someone to say we need to rename Black Ops because that's racist*
Yes, someone complained about the name despite the fact that it had nothing to do with racism and everything to do with being a folklore and song reference, so it was changed despite the fact that there are WAY more offensive things in the game. I personally believe that Ability should have held his ground because if someone attempted to make a case for their argument we could have crushed it, but in the end it wasn't my decision.
The ammunition names are also references to the same things, just in a roundabout way (if you read the article you'll see that they are alternate names for the same ghost).
Yes, I'm still irritated about the name change. Yes, I want it changed back. Yes, I'm even more irritated that it probably won't be.
I think the Technicians turret should gain a bit more... Active Usage besides two Weapon Modes. Something like the previously mentioned "Burst Fire" Idea would be neat to have implemented. It lacks interaction by the player to be able to get the most out of it ; all there is to it is to switch between weapon modes or hit hold fire.
Seeing the intended references makes things much better. People do try to perverse things and whatnot, to look like a "hero of justice" or some thing like that, making them feel better about themselves by misinterpreting something and taking offense to it.
Off-topic Rant Below; Read at ones own risk.
Jumping in to say that the single target round needs a buff.
In comparison it only does more damage to a single over the HE-F round but is majorly lacking in everything else especially attack range and speed.
Tested it out against a single Slasher on Nightmare Mode and sad to say the Slasher won with more than 60% health remaining after it eviscerated the turret and the turret was hitting the Slasher at maximum range.
Personally I am greatly in favor of the HE-F Rounds for every situation in game.
What I would suggest is either the range or attack speed gets increased because these factors work in unison against the Blackdog Turret. Less range means the turret has less time to hit creeps once they close the distance and a lower attack speed equals fewer shots in the time it can shoot. And also that it does more damage versus either Armored or Massive targets.
increase the range of the single target rounds and reinstate the full bleeding of the HE-F.
Does anyone have any stats/hard numbers in mind to ensure both AM and HE-F rounds are well-balanced? We can theorycraft this first while I wait to get back the map from Earendil this weekend to test.
Tentatively, I'd bring down the range of HE-F to 16 and raise the range of AM to 20. Then, AM will get a +30% multiplier for Armored targets.
Keep HE-F as they are currently with range decrease to 16
270 base damage +- mods
2.4 Attack Period
No Minimum Range
0.2 second ministun on target
That is basically 52% more damage than the HE-F round but without splash. And it can defend itself due to no minimum range.
The alternative would be to make it fire a lot faster for less damage. For instance
125 base damage +-mods
1.1 Attack Period
0.1 second ministun on target
Still, overall I would suggest something along the lines of overall 5-10% damage buff (I would argue putting this into speed rather than main damage) on both HE-F and AM rounds as they are comparatively lacklustre when you consider what MotM does and the gun gets picked off by a lone stalker currently unless defended even in Recruit mode.
It's the same concept as the Barrett. Because it lacks splash, it must do significantly more than a weapon with splash. A gauss rifle may only deal 12 damage, but it may splash upwards of a dozen units, and deal something closer to 12x10 damage a shot or so. Because the Barrett lacks any splash whatsoever, it deals tremendous damage.
Given their sheer size, the AM rounds should still have "some" splash, just markedly less. Something in the low range of 0.3-0.5 It's a bit like a cannonball, it may not actually be explosive itself, but the sheer force of impact will hurt more than just a single target.
Whatever the AOE rounds are, the Low splash rounds should be 200-300% stronger, with something like 10%-20% of the splash radius.
Make AM rounds the default ammo with 1 attack speed, 50 damage, +5 damage per point of armor. Make HE-F rounds apply open wound to everything in it's splash. AM is now clearly a safe option that is very effective versus super slashers and adequate during IVAX. HE-F is now back to it's original danger of teamkilling, but is still clearly superior for most of the game. Also, lower the switch speed to just barely over half the fire rate of the the slower weapon so that it makes more sense to switch for different enemies.
+ 75 vs Mechanical
+ 45 vs Armored
+ 45 vs Massive
+ 60 vs Structure
- 135 vs Light
Attack Speed: 2.7
Splash: .35 (1/3 of the damage in this Splash)
No Minimum Range.
Special Affect: Reduces targets armor by 3 per shot; debuff lasts 30 seconds.
Purpose: Heavy Weapon for Disabling Heavy Machinery and Breaking Through Heavy Defenses. When Fired upon light targets, the sheer size of the shell and lack of armoring of the target makes it extremely ineffective, though against the more armored targets, the shell plows through them, leaving gaping holes in their armor, making them more vulnerable to conventional weapons provided they aren't dead from it entering them.
Damage: 160 +- Modifiers remain
Attack Speed: 2.4
Splash: Remains the Same
Minimum Range: Remains the same.
Purpose: The Opposite of the AM Rounds, this serves to excel against hordes of light enemies, while be weak against Heavily Armored targets. The Explosive Shells ravage the mobs and tear them into pieces. When Fired against armored targets, the inability to penetrate the armor of the target renders it non-lethal, though still causing a threat.
Now for some Rapid Firing Rounds:
+ 10 vs Light
Attack Speed: 1.76
Armor Reduction: 2.5 points
Special Effect: Attacks 3 times rapidly every Attack Interval, all 3 attacks go off over .3 seconds. When attacking a target, the target is unable to advance forward from the barrage of rounds.
Purpose: The "Safe" option. Its relatively still viable in usage, and tears apart light targets. The intended idea is, if against a boss, by maximizing armor reduction on the boss, this Weapon Mode becomes extremely capable of dealing major damage.
The single target rounds do not need damage reduction vs. light. The turret doesn't miss, and even if it did, the slipstream of the shell would be more than sufficient to kill whatever it shot at. .50 caliber rounds don't have to hit you to kill you, and artillery shells are no different.
I don't want autocannon rounds. It's an artillery piece, and it's not built for rapid fire.[hr]
Kith's official numbers:
"Black Shuck" HE-F Shells
180 vs Light
140 vs Armored
180 vs Biological
150 vs Structure
Attack speed of 2.5
18 range, Min Range 3
Splash radius 2
Applies Open Wound to primary target (this applies to allies) and Open Wound to targets splashed (this does not apply to allies). The primary target, if an enemy, is affected by both templates (and therefore will receive 2 open wounds per shot).
"Mauthe Dhoog" AM Rounds
340 vs Armored
340 vs Massive
Attack speed of 2
20 range, no minimum
Damage ignores armor values. Has linear splash with a length of 1.5. Splash damage extends outwards from damaged enemy, Banshee style. Linear splash width of .25.
Separate names with a comma.