Technician Balance

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So several members have expressed to me their distaste (some of them, extreme distaste) with the state of affairs regarding the Technician's balancing. It's mostly because he was designed to combat Hades and, almost comically, shortly after the Technician's arrival on Apollo, Hades received a fine drubbing with the nerf bat.

    So now the Technician (more specifically, March of the Machine) is way more powerful than he needs to be.

    Honestly, I think this can be fixed by redoing the "acquires targets" mechanic. Instead of queuing up commands to attack everything nearby, just have the player unalign themselves from allies for the duration of the ability. The other players will still remain aligned to the Technician player, so they won't automatically attack the Technician, but the Technician will automatically attack them. This will make the micro required to keep him out of trouble much higher to balance out his extreme destructive potential.

    Lowering the bonus ratio to 200% instead of 300% may also solve the problem, but when I designed the class I didn't intend for Full Moon's old targeting system to be brought along. I'd rather we try out the targeting mechanic that I originally intended to be used before lowering the numbers so keeping the Technician under control becomes much more difficult and therefore justifying the bonuses. If it's still found out to be too powerful even with the more difficult targeting system, then I'm fine with the numbers being adjusted.
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Your creation of the Technician was, well, during my MIA period from NOTD. So I don't really know what you intended and the topic isn't there anymore for me to go and look at. So I'm not sure what you were aiming for. There are a lot of artifacts from the old Bob skill set (Though missing my favorite two, Super Bob and Punch!). And it feels like the reason it is where it's at is more or less because of that. Interested to see what you originally had going and how it might have differed.

    I know a common complaint I hear is that the WeaponsTech feels... pointless. Now that Black Dog can't have one tech keeping up 8 turrets constantly (Which I agree was a good idea by the way), the Black Dog is now much more TK dangerous, with less damage put down field, and less ability to sponge up damage either. The weapon tech has tank potential, disable with the net, and high damage. It's the same sort of imbalance that the SubComm has. Sure WeaponsTech has some good skills. Mad Spark was always a winner. Array is a very good skill. Just isn't anywhere as beast as the Modifications Tech. Seems anything the Weapon Tech does, the Modifications Tech does better.
  3. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Just make the OW a 50% chance on Allies from the turret.

    MotM can have nanites removed while active, and have it's attack speed reduced to 75% speed, but leave the uber duber 300% damage. Alternatively it could do fun things like reduce weapon range, increase reload time, or decrease movespeed. Just tweaking existing numbers is lazy balancing, there's so many variables SCII has, there's no reason not to find alternate solutions.
  4. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    How does that sound for a March Change-up? At the very least, it provides some synergy with the crawler drones.

    That is more over what I would do in regards to the Technician. At the moment, Bogey Beast is a rather passive skill that is used, and is really the only truly damaging skill on the Weapons Technician. His Tier 1 Skills do not do anything that really contributes to his DPS; It all comes from him using Targeting Array.

    An additional thought would be that by deploying the Targeting Array after the Surveillance Drone, the Targeting Array will last for half the duration of the Surveillance Drone, and gain an Increased Boost as it has a better vantage point to observe enemies and upload information.

    Again, those are my thoughts on him. Weapons doesn't even relate to Weaponry that much, and Modification is vastly superior. It somewhat Nerfs March as an independent Skill, but I feel its an overall buff if the Technician has the Crawler Drones up. Overall I feel Weapons needs a new name, as its currently misleading. It mostly doesn't relate to Weapons except for Targeting Array and Bogey Beast.

    I just tried to work a bit off what NiteShade had said, its just a concept addition to it. I suck at creating Original Concepts / Methods.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Ideally I'd just like to see the Drone replaced. I know it was based off Bob's Eyeball... but even on Bob the Eyeball wasn't really used. Punch was so much better in every way. But on the tech the Drone feels even more superfluous. Detection? Floodlights already does it. High ground sight? Floodlights. The damage skill? Too much micro for too little reward, particularly since the cool down is as long as it is. Floodlights getting a slow, and sharing vision with allies where the drone does not? Just makes Floodlights the superior skill in every way.

    Considering he's a "Weapons" tech but doesn't really have a "Weapon" skill beyond Array and Black Dog it'd seem more natural to give him a good utility offensive skill. Gives him more micro to do than just press W for array every 12 seconds, and once in a blue moon throwing out a Mad Spark.

    I'm just going off the top of my head right now. But say something like this:

    Customized Muntions:

    The Technician uses his suit's nanites to modify his ammunition and weaponry, maximizing it's damage potential against it's intended targets.

    25 Energy, 10 second duration, 15 second cool down.

    Self Buff. Only effects weapons with type bonuses and penalties.

    Level 1: Bonus damage based on type is increased by 2 per round.
    (e.g. The Gauss Rifle will do 12 damage base as normal. However it's Plus Massive, Plus Structure, and Plus Armor bonuses are both increased by 2 damage for the duration. Thus against a Massive-Armored-Structure a Gauss Rifle will deal 30 damage per shot before armor reduction.)
    Level 2: Bonus damage based on type is increased by 4 per round.
    Level 3: Penalty damage based on type is removed.


    Probably not the right idea. But hey, we suggest things, sometimes they are even good.
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I agree that the tree names are not very fitting.

    Weapons tech sounds like it should have:
    Surv drone, net, passive T2 weapon boost, targeting array, motm (weakened)

    Mod tech sounds like it should have:
    floodlights, nanite aura, mad spark, crawler drones, turret

    Of course damage on the weapons would be through the roof like that but it wouldn't be too good a tank without nanite arua (making it more the dps guy) while but is the team support guy.
  7. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    What about splitting MotM into two different abilities to be the two T3 abilities for the class? Turn weapons tech into a support/dps and modifications into a tank/support.

    Weapons tree is spark and ballistics tier 1, array and bogey beast tier 2, and a modified version of MotM that deals solely with damage output as tier 3.

    Modifications tree is net and nanites tier 1, crawlers and floodlights tier 2, and a modified version of MotM that deals solely with health and armor as tier 3.

    (stuff will be weakened/buffed of course)
  8. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Switch floodlights and spark and it has my vote. Spark would be better served on the tanking class anyway since it's the closest thing to a taunt tech can get.
  9. DrawingDead

    DrawingDead Member

    Floodlights:
    Why does it have scope vision and slow? If you look at critical strike between mm and rifle, they are the same (T1). So my point is this; no class should have an existing ability "buffed" more on one class vs the other.

    Either give him scope or give him a Tier 1 version of foresight.

    Surveillance Drone:
    I agree that it is "weak" or "unused" especially because it shares t1 with floodlights. Anything surv drone can do floodlights already do it, and with slow. Surveillance drone is nice for super-far sight but the laser ability is useless. Perhaps have enemies in x radius under surveillance drone suffer a negative effect and take away laser.

    Targeting Array:
    Seems ok

    Mad Spark:
    No complaints

    Bogey Beast:
    I feel it only has a couple uses, Apop and Athena horde. Anything other than those scenarios I feel the turret is "useless" because of the danger to the team. The amount of ally afflicted OW's is ridiculous.

    Nanosteel net:
    Not bad

    Nanites:
    I feel it is still OP. It is very team orientated and very helpful against Apop but at Apop tech is soloing anyway. I suggest changing nanites from an aura to a weak heal+repair single target in one, along with techs self healing nanites. This would fix the lack of repair by engineer however, a tech who can repair himself would be silly seeing as this is his only "ailment" he can catch while cockpit is closed.

    Crawler drones:
    Seems ok

    Ballistics:
    A little silly to add passive dps to something that engages into 300% increased damage. Not sure what to change here

    MOTM:
    Silly silly OP as it is. Nite's suggestion of altering something outside of damage could work better.
    Before tech in Apollo a long time ago (not that long, I'm sure you all remember) we had SMM and others kite Hades 2 because he was un-tankable. I guess similar to Athena this I thought was a very specific trait to Hades 2. I'm not so sure Hades should be tanked by tech as easily as asstank does queen.
  10. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    We never kited Hades 2, ever. No point when you can OHK him with Inception Shiva.

    Speaking off which, Shiva should only do the base 40k, and not be influenced by ANY outside source.
  11. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Well, that was when teams didn't care about speed and spent hour seeking shiva. Now, if your mod tech dies or all thors die, SMM/PO kites Hades 2.

    AS for shiva, Maybe make it that way, but all that does is make it more worthless then it already is. Sadly Shiva is borderline worthless as is. Logic is as follows:

    1) EC company. It only drops after BO die, giving you 0 time to really look for it before Queen + Mobs arrive. Also it is borderline impossible to Shiva Queen, you can't see her coming, and by the time you do, Shiva would take out your team along with barely damaging her.

    2) Alpha Co. Shiva is ONLY used to kill ivax, since Perses can not be shivaed (Unpredictable location/same deal as Queen)

    3) Apollo. Shiva if found VERY fast can OHK Athena, but this is incredibly rare. Otherwise used to OHK Hades 2 if found. IF you remove any bonus damage from Shiva, it now becomes unusable at all versus Hades, since after you shiva, Hades will live, and you now can not even get near him, thus backing you into a corner vs him.

    4) Survival. Here the nerf to Shiva would mean little, Shiva is used to exterminate machines and nydus worms, leaving you free to kite GotB. Can be used by incept OPS to OHK GotB, but also incredibly rare that a team carries one to this point.
  12. DrawingDead

    DrawingDead Member

    You're right most of the time we did incept shiva hades 2 but there were many games we could not, mainly because shiva was troll hiding.
  13. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I'm fine with switching Mad Spark and Ballistics around. Mad Spark does have some minor uses on the WeaponTech, and can be good for maximizing Black Dog damage potential. But thinking about it the ModTech doesn't really have anything to spend it's energy on. Other than March of the Machine. I mean yeah, there's the net, but it doesn't seem to get used much once March is unlocked. And even before March is opened up it just doesn't see the use that it should.

    Things I'd like to see on March of the Machines:

    Reduced move speed. Cutting it down to 75% might be an interesting mechanic and keep March of the Machines more as an Anti-Boss talent than a general Mob Slayer or panic button. It turns it into something that requires some positioning and planning instead of an instant switch. Will reduce it's effectiveness during a few of the running segments.

    Reduced Attack Speed. This should also cut down on March of the Machines being the huge damage dealer that it is. Considering their usual weapon of choice being high output weapons such as the Barrett generally, having a severe penalty (While keeping the damage buff) could be a decent trade off. So I'm thinking something like -50% attack speed (Presuming Ballistics is traded out).

    Increased scrap healing. Particularly if the Nanite Aura is reduced/turned off during March of the Machines. Gives Techs more incentive to really plan their drones (And placement of Scrap), rather than using them purely for extra DPS.

    Increase Reload Time by 50%. Again, slows down the DPS pain train that the current tech has going. Again interesting how it would react with the typically used weapons I see on ModTechs, Shotguns and Barrett and their typically long reloads.

    As far as the triple HP and Armor? Eh. Keep it. I don't mind it's ability to tank so much. Just the fact that it's a combination of Tank and Powerhouse DPS.

    Edit: Additional thought while on my walk today. Giving the Technician the "Fire on the Move" ability a la X1. Particularly if he gets the Slowing effects listed above. It will allow him to do a different sort of tanking which might be interesting. We don't really have a "Kite tank" necessarily. And lacking a taunt effect it could allow the Technician to better maintain tanking Aggro by making sure the enemies are dragged away (Slowly) from his teammates. Not like he'd be able to outrun any enemy other than Bulletproof Zombies with the slow (and Agrons presuming they don't get in charge range I guess).
  14. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I would propose adjusting the numbers down due to time constraints - primarily the move speed and attack speed modifiers. Is that okay?
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I think if only ms and as are changed, the magnitude would need to be larger than if you reduce the MotM damage bonus additionally
  16. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Will cut down movespeed by 25% and attack speed by 25% this weekend, maybe. Is better to take gradual steps and refine from there rather than go to the extreme and then back.

    For Black Dog, if OW chance is reduced to 50% on allies, the minor impact is that it'll take longer to stack for Apoptosis. It's a compromise that hurts both ends. I'd rather have it deal no OW at all on all allies instead. Any thoughts?
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    No OW on allies would be fair given that hits by allies don't count as hits.

    It also prevents "meta gaming" by bleeding yourself prior to the fight.
  18. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Hits by the turret do count as hits.
  19. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Yes hits by allies don't count as hits.
    Suggesting that bogey beast hits do not count as hits either.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Dunno, is the Black Dog really needed for getting bloodied up? There are plenty of Agrons right before the fight and typically I see that get used for the bloodening instead of the Black Dog, even the few games where the Black Dog is present.

    Additionally if it had 100% bloodening, but only 50% ally damage. Less team wipe TK potential on those troll "A zombie appears right next to me!" spawns. Still very dangerous. Allows it to be predictably used for the Bloodening. Which I guess might be something you may or may not want to occur. It's the damage, particularly with the Array out, that TKs more than the bleeding, last I saw.

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