Survival mode

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ghost, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    From playing and observation of the current Survival mode, I find that the scaling of mobs could use some work for low players (2-3) and some changes may be required to make classes all have some viability in survival as opposed to some being must-haves.

    On EU at least, there's been a lot of 2 player teams going Psiops - Tech or Pathfinder - Tech and abusing Gravity Gun and Assault Jump/Speed of Thought to maneuver themselves into locked Apollo and Airlock and then lock creeps/minibosses in/out.

    The Psiops and Pathfinder then usually take a backseat while the Tech MotMs everythigng with a Barrett or Crowbar while being immune to all ailments except Shortcircuit.

    GotB is handled by manipulating with GG into/out of Apollo and then fire at it while it cannot fight back and MotM shiva kills just about eveything else that could cause trouble (Perses, sometimes GotB if things otherwise aren't going well)

    Easy fix might just be to have all gates open by default, though this still would not take care of scenarios where Psiops or Pathfiner help the tech get on an otherwise inaccessible wall ledge from where they just rain death on everything not flying.

    Outside of those exploit situations, people haven't been able to beat Survival on EU and it seems that Tech is almost a must have for the insane DPS that MotM dishes out with Barrett still. No other class gets close to the raw dps output.

    Furthermore, the current survival still suffers from a very tough Perses and wave 37 Nazara+mob.
    Once those are ironed out you could consider basic survival to be more beatable by conventional means and other classes, although Tech will still outshine everyone.

    Considering that Survival Nightmare is also an option, it actually is too difficult to get very far in it currently, though I can see that the above trick may well with some luck succedd even there.

    On a very small aside, is it intended that all classes are available to players in survival even if they do not meet xp/rating requirements?
  2. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Survival is really meant to be 'beaten' at Wave 20 and anything beyond is intended to be 'impossible' micro challenges for teams. A lot of work still needs to go into that, but it's lower priority relative to the key main storyline changes we've been making lately.

    Pathfinder's Assault Jump should now not be able to cheese tough locations due to a new logic check we've made in last patch. I still have a sinking feeling that MotM is a little too strong, even without Barrett. Making that weapon friendly fire is an option we're trying to avoid because many people have seen instant TKs in the past from it. We can argue until the cows come home for either case.

    We'll likely unlock all gates in Survival as well given the multiple cheese options.
  3. DrawingDead

    DrawingDead Member

    You guys still end up killing Perses before he gets you? On NA I know we all struggle with wave 36 and being able to kill Perses otherwise I think there would be people cheesing like EU.

    As far as classes to beat GOTB go, the two most common classes are probably left tree PO (almost never see inception) and MOTM tech (cause why not? it's OP). Combat engineer is also very successful.

    For me I have been able to solo most waves including GOTB as either a surv rifle or (my recent favorite) arms assault. It basically comes down to dps/aoe stuns, both of their T3's.

    One thing to note is MOTM does not affect shiva anymore, at least on NA.

    Survival -nm is almost never attempted because the only thing that comes out of it is pure ridiculousness.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Lately it's been Nanotech Medics I've seen doing GOTB. They can easily outpace him while Nanosearing him down. And the spawns at the time seem to be just a few random stalkers that are hardly a real impediment to unlimited kite searing.

    Just saying. Not that I think it's really wrong. The Nanotech Medic can't really carry the team on any other wave, least from what I've seen. Just saying that's what happens.
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I do agree MotM is still much too strong. When you look at it, it is Bob's Full Moon on steroids where you are no longer melee only but can use any gun and continue to benefit from whatever you got equipped and your nanite aura+passive T2 weapon booster.
    Generally speaking the Right tree tech is both best DPS as well as best Tank in one. It really ought to be separated a bit.

    I'm in fact tempted to say that MotM should deal at most +75% damage while keeping the HP boost.
    Note that the passive T2 still adds onto that with any HP/AP etc you may have equipped so damage is still +100% or more.

    MotM tech currently pretty much solos Hades too.

    In terms of survival beaten at 20, the -w record only shows wave 40 beaten while the medal is for wave 20. But the -w becoems a bit meaningless with exploits as above.

    Appreciate that Survival is low priority compared to some class reworks and storyline perfections.

    No, outside of the Tech MotM Barrett or shiva when it used to work Perses still floats about by the time GotB goes down.
    Perses probably would be much moe fitting for wave 40 :p
  6. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Interesting, here in NA we don't have to cheese to win, but then again its me and Archangel, never occurred to us to try. Mainly we leverage the X-1 bot kiting ability (which has been nerfed apparently). For gotb it was an endless kite of having bot steadily outpace and shooting gotb, with occasional OD, then when he gets close, push or turbo away, also we dropped PO images and stingered images or toss tons of grenades behind. Generally took a few laps (20+) around map to win, our hands are usually shot by the end. Perses we ignore, we just run.

    As for classes yeah... In my opinion I automatically write off half the games classes as worthless for surv because they are too slow or too weak of effects. Any and all forms of tanking are pointless meaning MotM tech/asstank/order flamer usually dont make the cut (order has shatter, but thats it, smite isnt really helpful). FA medic doesn't help, AMM is too slow, etc. Really 2 criterion control class selection in survival: Can you help survive rushing past demeter cocoons and machines, and can you out pace GotB? Fail either of those, and the class is worthless.
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Order Flamer seems ok the last time I used it with DD.

    Has a fast enough default movespeed and faith helps with the demeter hats.

    Won't help much after that though aside from maybe helping stun/lure the GOTB away from the dude that actually kills him in emergencies.

    That said, I have to ask, is it intended design that Survival ends by killing GOTB and nothing else after (Perses is alive)?
  8. DrawingDead

    DrawingDead Member

    order flamer is boss and can solo past 35.
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    "Faith everything!"
  10. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Order does do well with shatter/faith, but sometimes I wonder if inferno would be better.

    AS for surv ending with GotB death, yes it makes sense, everything else can be kited MUCH more easily then him (lower speed, damage).
  11. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    Just a heads up, but a bunch of channel scrubs figured out how to beat Survival consecutively.
    Their skill is way less than ours too!
    And they do pretty lame cheezy noob things from what I could tell in previous other games where we made it pretty far.
  12. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Pathfinder hide inside Apollo?
  13. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    If you just kite around the map in a small group after scouting then meeting together at wave 3 then kiting as a group, you are bound to get at least to Persy Jackson and the Church of Pasta (mileage may vary, but its how I prefer to do it).

    The Channel people do it a much more different way then I do; they seem to focus way to much (in my opinion) on holing up, when you have a much larger chance kiting the map.

    If it wasn't for Persues sharing sight, Rise of the Machines would be a piece of cake.[hr]
    @Nite, Its probably Speed of Thought Psi + GG carrying people into apollo via tele to scientists (not sure if thats it), or just having FO drop a few mini's into there then teleporting. Pathfinder no longer travels through terrain layers / Obstacles using Assault Jump from what I see.
  14. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    The solution then would just be have all the doors and gates on the map lowered at the start of Survival.
  15. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    All classes are in some way useful in survival, DrawingDead has proved that many times to me in some 2 man runs we have been doing. We survive mainly because we work together.

    Currently absolutely no one at all, but myself want to even try NM survival. We did an EM survival game just to see it if was any easier, and it was up until wave 35 or 36. An important thing to note is that we got the same experience in that EM win as we do in a normal win. I didn't crunch the numbers, but it looked/felt like the amount of credits were the same as normal mode. This makes it seem like the experience/credit gain is the same accross all modes of survival which also makes it harder to get people to do NM survival because they see no incentive.

    I feel that I could more people to attempt NM survival with me if the experience/credit gain was greater from that of normal survival and if there can be less rating loss when people die early and get hit a lot because it is NM survival and people are going to get hit not matter what and its a lot of hits. Pretty much the only thing NM survival does is tank everyones rating in 5 minutes. This makes it impossible for people to want to attempt it back to back because they would be crazy if they did. Doing back to back NM survivals in an attempt to figure out a good way to do it is just looking like a very quick way to find yourself at 0 rating. This rating tank needs to be removed from the early waves of survival. By early waves I'm refering to ways 1-10, and maybe waves 11-20 as well.
  16. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    There is additional Credits gain in Survival NM - for XP, none atm. We'll reduce Credits gain in Easy Mode games in next patch.

    Inherently, most people are going to take more hits during Survival and it's probably a good idea to adjust the hit tolerance up for Survival mode. Any other thoughts on this?
  17. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't. Would rather the mode have a rating gain for each 5 or 10 waves to make up for the losses. Would also reward people who were good enough to actually avoid the hits in the first place (which is admittedly quite hard) :p
  18. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I find that even when you take a lot of hits you hardly lose any rating in survival especially if you make it to about 19 and beyond.
    That's speaking from approx 17xx start rating.

    In any case. You tend to only lose rating by dying early, not by surviving a lot of waves in my experience, which may of course differ to others.
  19. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    If I take 7 hits in the first 5 waves, I will lose no fewer than 20 rating by the time we win (if we win.) Survival is not kind to 2k rating.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    So maybe survival just needs to ignore your base rating and make you lose rating on set thresholds of hits/wave.
    I can take 100+ hits early and still gain rating at 16xx and 17xx in survival. In EC I'd lose rating for that.

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