Survcon needs nerfin'.

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It's become readily apparent (even moreso than it was previously) that one of the reasons that the Mobcon is underplayed is because the Survcon is suuuuuuuuper powerful by comparison, mostly because of his Tier 3 and Supply Station.

    SS is really, really powerful. But I'm not in the mood to deal with the torch and pitchfork reaction of nerfing it, so I'm gonna do this instead.

    Pick an option. One of these WILL happen. Feel free to suggest alternatives if you're of a mind.
  2. Peerawatz
    • Development Team

    Peerawatz NOTD Staff: Sound Mixer and NOTD Troll Chieftain

    I prefer the 2nd Option mostly, it is what made it so damn useful and overpowered over any any other non-marine units, being able to fly beats Cloaking of any types, you ignore terrain, you have air visions, and all melee units can't do shit to you. Having it carrying only ammo/AB will at best turn it into more team dps booster (which is still largely more useful than MobRec) and still sometimes fly around, find items (that will be picked up later). And I hate to code that too (The only ammo carrying part >>

    But imo, I'd rather have the Reaper no longer has weapons, or a weapon that it can't use to kill stuffs on it's own and the Protect Skill no longer make it has OP speed. Booster is replaced with 4 seconds cloak and speed buff that can be used every 12 seconds (to avoid being pursued by angry gargoyles). Lower Sight Vision. if it's still too good, lower carry slot to 1, that should be enough.

    Or make it has two modes, ground version that has moderate move speed and can fend off itself with moderately powerful weapon and moderate hp, and air mode that is slower, no weapons, has the current skills. Very low hp
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    According to Arcane, an ammo-only inventory would be relatively simple once the inventory rework is done (and that's what he's currently doing, so yeah).

    I only lean slightly towards the first option, by merit of it being easier and not having to rework the Protect skill.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well, as someone that plays SurvCon a lot, and Recons period about 90% of the time I play... I would rather have the 1st option. Most of the "Fetching" I do anyway is ammo related. Sure when it's something OTHER than Ammo it's usually important, but the vast majority of the time I'm pulling in mags for those guys too busy to pay attention to the field and sit in SSes, then wonder why they are out of ammo.

    But the fact that I'm making that judgement based on a class I like to play, and would still like to keep playing tells me it is PROBABLY the wrong choice. Really the Red Eyes there is a great team booster between Protects, Stuns, and a fairly decent gun on it, and generally being able to handle most things due to it's Flying status and the generally low damage inflicted against Fliers by things other than end bosses.

    To be honest, I'd also be fine if my boy there lost the gun, but gained maybe one other utility/team boosting power. Most Recons other than I? I don't see them use powers for Jack unless it's the Speed Hack to get back across the map with Protect. They don't Pulse, they don't Protect tanks/vulnerable targets. They just gun down or they item fetch.

    Removing the gun, giving it another utility ability, and locking it to maybe Ammo, Kits, Bandages, AV only. Probably the right way to go.
  5. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    I would suggest to nerf the Reaper's utility instead. Cut its base damage in half (maybe make it unupgradable with levels as well), remove the speed boost it gets from Protect + lower the shield it gives, nerf the AOE stun slightly (maybe remove it entirely, its seriously strong as a disable). Maybe give it a base speed boost and increase turbo's MS bonus just so it won't just die to any random muta. But otherwise, it shouldn't be as useful outside of scouting and getting items.

    If you want to go the other way and nerf its scouting abilities instead, removing that speed boost from protect would go a long way in addition to limiting the type of items it can carry. Also a base speed nerf won't hurt either but keep Pulse and maybe add on a 3rd skill that allows it to be useful to the team. (Something like Laser Pointer: increases the targetting priority of the target you choose to the maximum possible.)
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Spoke with Arcane a bit, and I'm leaning towards (in addition to whatever is the most popular choice) removing the leveling veterancy dealie on the Reaper. There's not really much point to it. This will be compensated for by giving the Reaper a bit more durability to survive Mutas rather than be equipped to kill them. If the player wishes to use the Reaper as a supporting DPS, that's their prerogative, but it is not its only (or intended) role.
  7. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Am fine with #1 - but for it to not be able to pickup weapons and armor only. Am okay to minimize/remove veterancy on Reaper and to add one more active ability on it to incentivize micro (right now it's a lot of park and shoot - like X1 in the past).
  8. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Do not nerf the damage nor remove the Drones ability to attack nor its leveling.

    What do you think helps keep the Recon alive in Nightmare games? The extra added damage from the Drone. It also helps cut down on ammo consumption and increases demand on micro.

    I see many idiotic Recon players commit the worst sin when they build their Drone - They put it on a follow command. Later some of them learn to manage their Drone independently which helps them out a great deal.

    The Drone is also useful for picking off stray units that would attempt to harass the Recon when he is busy doing something.

    The leveling, do not remove it. The leveling increments has been greatly increased already, it takes 42 zombie and 12 Stalker kills for it to level up to Level 2 and then it jumps after that. It takes ages now for it to advance.
    What it also does is teach the importance of your Pet. It is your buddy. He grows with you. When it finally does level you put forth more effort to keep it alive. Its not just some tool you can mindlessly order about. I put on my serious face when my Drone is getting attacked and is in the red and cry out each time it dies. If I had the option I would put a gravestone by the location where it died and have a moment of silence.

    The Drone is an extension of the Recon himself. It is part of him. It is his buddy in the field and his watcher. His companion.

    Also why not to remove the leveling. When it levels it gets better. Health, it can be a bit more daring in its scouting work. Energy, you make use of its Turbo more and more and its other 2 abilities. Later it benefits from the Level Bonuses like increased sight range, increased armor and Backstab and that is just awesome! Though it takes forever to get and you cry an ocean if it gets destroyed. It all increases the possibilities on the Drone like I use it pick off Infested Marines as they have a higher target priority than normal zombies and I even get them to cluster, hit em with Supersonic Pulse, run in and blast em while they are stunned. It takes micro. Position the Drone for Backstab on tougher targets and you then stretch your attention for you have to keep an eye on you and your Drone.

    Also lorewiese, Recons who have proven exemplary service become valuable assets to the UGC Marine Corps and thus they reward and protect these Recons with the Reaper Drone which they manage themselves. The Drone is also the next step in information retrieval and with each event it learns, it calculates, it analysis, it assesses based on the information it has gathered. Also, the Reaper Drone is a military asset. Flying overhead scouting and can eliminate targets if necessary without having to put military personnel at risk.
  9. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Is it the fact that he's always in the very middle of the team and has seven other people there to protect him? Or maybe each class should be perfectly capable of taking care of itself, rather than having specialized support classes, dps classes, tank classes, and scout classes.

    If you're relying on your drone to keep you alive, you're doing it wrong.
  10. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • Community Leader

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    If reaper is too overpowered right now, why not make it carry only one item at a time? The only issue I see is the inability to stack ammo to boxes as of now, but I'm sure Arcane will do something about that.

    If it's still too powerful... Increase cooldown to say, two minutes instead of one minute, because as Reaper says:

    That, or limit the amount of Reapers you can create like mobile infantry, because...

    It's not a disposable toy, General Koller's budget anyone?
  11. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Not all Surv Recons sit with the team and most do a proper job of straying away from the team looking for items. As the game progresses it becomes harder, its the Recons way of keeping up with the change.
  12. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Reaper, that is the entire problem with the Drone. It can do EVERYTHING.

    - It can level like a Hero
    - It can stun
    - It can save people with Protect
    - It can do Mobcons entire job, safer
    - It can be microed to great effect, like a Hero
    - It has DPS on par with Heros, and safer

    In short, I could make my Recon completely disappear once I get Drone and no one would really object. It basically is on par with a hero, just minus a few abilites, but it gains all Pet powers, and to top it off, its disposable and replaceable.

    So what is going to be cut? It's fighting power, its scouting power, or its item power? If we retain its fighting power, then it becomes the flying version of a X-1 minus OD. The recon is a support class, not a fighting class. He isn't a ninja, he is the primary indirect support class (he can't do anything directly to people, but his powers indirectly help them all day).

    Just saw Meg's post, and that would probably be the best thing if we want to retain its omnitool power, make either you get a tiny number of them (like 3 tops) or you get them on a LOOONG CD (10-20 Minutes).
  13. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    - It takes longer to level than a hero and it is far less effective than any hero
    - Small area stun which does not affect bosses
    - Then change Protect to become a Channel and remove the speed bonus on the Drone when it gets used
    - Any class can do the Mobcons job, the Subtlety Marksman tramples all over him
    - If you don't put in the effort to micro it it does nothing
    - On par with heroes? It does not have splash and cannot switch its weapons. Any class would outpace the Drone. The only advantage the Drone has over other classes when it comes to damage is it ignores armor. In any fight, even boss fights the Drone contributes only a marginal amount of damage. It gets its primary damage from its levels because you put forth the effort to keep it alive and allow it to get kills and it takes forever for it to get to a level where its damage changes totally.

    Any class would always be greater the Drone even the Surveillance Recon himself.

    The X-1 will anyways always outpace the Drone because of the Engineer thanks to Synergy, Boom! Headshot and Overdrive. In a fight the X-1 will destroy the Drone.

    The Drones contribution to the overall game is marginal, it is so little, the only person who realizes its effect is the player that controls it.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Or rather on the "Drone is too good" front... we can look at the following.

    What is the classic "MobCon" mission? As in the one most people would say the MobCon is definitely the best at, hands down. Not SubMM, not anything else?

    For my money it would be the Civilian Rescue in Apollo City during Easy Company Chapter 2.

    Though between Motion Sensor, and the Reaper Drone as it stands? The truth is a SurvCon played even at moderate skill is as good, or better, than the MobCon for it. As it has the superior spotting, combat toughness to be able to easily pick off spawns, and more than enough power to escort civilians safely even without Escape.

    And really the only reason that IS the case is because of the Reaper's superior ability to deal with spawns (A Reaper and the Recon carrying a Flamer or even a pistol will about instantly destroy anything you run into).

    Of course you can say that isn't true really. But the only case it isn't true that I've seen is basically if you are holed up in such a way all spawns funnel out the East Gate or you didn't power up gates, and are doing the long range Camp and Missile thing on the Domes. And even then the MobCon isn't good for it as modes where that is SOP tend to be Nightmare with a lot of Charging and Detection ruining your ability to nab the civilians.

    But in a situation where domes are fought at, as intended? The SurvCon ends up being superior to the MobCon, at the one mission the MobCon is meant to do above all other classes in the minds of most people. And that rests entirely on the Reaper Drone.

    So as much as I love my Red Eyes there, I recognize it needs to change.
  15. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    And you don't think it's a huge problem that a survcon can do that?
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I don't think the drone is a big problem beaue to use it effectively, you need very good micro to keep both yourself AND the drone alive. It takes a fair bit more skill than the Infantry FO whose minis are generally more powerful than the drone from the first calldown.

    Also, moment the drone dies, its back to level 1 so you don't remakea level 5 droneor anything. Its very rare to have a high level drone without lots of good micro, and remember it doesn't share XP, so a drone kill = team gets less XP too.

    The Protect speed bug was fixed so that is no longer a factor.

    Generally I don't think the SurvCon is too good. I would just say that it does everything the MobCon in its CURRENT role does better, which is why were ought to redesign the mobcon to have a different role.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Except that's what the Infantry FO is supposed to do whereas the SurvCon is a powerful support in his own right and that's why the Reaper drone is "hard". Yes, it "requires micro", also known as checking on your hero at five or ten second intervals while it sits safely and snugly in the middle of the team.
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I really think this might have some neat idea's. Like seriously, I have no idea why but I like it

    Its like making the Current Drone gain its abilities as you level it up, so it isn't that useful when you make it at level 1 initially, but becomes potent as you level it up. It also has to be recollected every time you lose it, and coincidentally, it loses half of its experience, and as such, half of its utility as well. And you can't remake it until you retrieve it.
  19. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Alright you non-believers here you go. Here you have some info on the Reaper Drone in-game and this was a Recruit Mode game which means killing comes easy same as everything else.
    Things to take note of

    1. The Drone does not have shared XP, all that XP that it has or gets is from itself, it gets zero XP from others nor events
    2. The normal zombie gives 5XP. Level 2 to 3 has a 600XP requirement. That is 120 kills. And then it near doubles for Level 3 to 4.
    3. The last picture where my Drone is in the orange is game end, it even landed the killing blow on Eos the Zombie Queen and that is what it has.
    4. From a game time of 34:32 to 1:15:02 (more than 40 minutes) this is what was achieved. The Drone did not die so if it did the achievement would have been much less.
    5. I first created my Drone directly after Erebos 1 was beaten
    6. This was Recruit Mode...

    And after some consideration and reading through some articles the easiest solution to the whole "Survcon is OP" (Pfffttt) is just remove the inventory on the Reaper Drone entirely then poor little Mobcon and every class can go looking for the items themselves.

    And this why I say it - Role of a Reaper Drone - Unmanned combat air vehicle -AND- The MQ-9 is the first hunter-killer UAV designed for long-endurance, high-altitude surveillance.

    There is your definition for the Reaper Drone. It surveys and eliminates.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Regarding gaining abilities as it levels up, what if we made say level 3 unlock inventory for the drone

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