Subtlety Commando Suggestions

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Blaqk, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Since poor Subby doesn't have his own thread, I'll get the ball rolling.

    The name for the class is the independent alternative to Operative (what we should rename "Operations" to). The naming scheme is fencing bladework and evasion and the idea is to have a self-sustaining, and well-rounded team player who wont just ES&D if he gets left behind. He'll be especially useful in Alpha Company where the number of stuns and enemy control is dwindling, yet still be powerful in Easy Company.

    [hr]

    [align=center]Agent[/align]


    Tier 1


    Bind 20 E | 15 s Cooldown | 15 s Duration
    Level 1 - Enemies damaged by the Commando are slowed for 10% and take 10% more damage from all attacks.
    Level 2 - Enemies damaged by the Commando are slowed for 20% and take 20% more damage from all attacks.
    Level 3 - Enemies damaged by the Commando are slowed for 30% and take 30% more damage from all attacks.

    Recover 25 E | 10 s Cooldown
    Level 1 - Heals 30 health on target.
    Level 2 - Heals 40 health and cures Open Wound on target.
    Level 3 - Heals 50 health and cures Open Wound and Cripple on target.


    Tier 2


    Riposte 30 E | 10 s Cooldown
    Level 1 - Radius 3 around Commando, deals 50 damage and knocks enemies back by 5
    Level 2 - Radius 4 around Commando, deals 100 damage and knocks enemies back by 6

    Coup de Grâce 20 E | 7 s Cooldown | Passively adds 1 range to knife.
    Level 1 - Deals 750 melee damage to target enemy.
    Level 2 - Deals 1500 melee damage to target enemy.


    Tier 3


    Attaque au l'Esprit 40 E | 30 s Cooldown | 15 s Duration | Cannot target Heroic.

    Fires a debilitating round that halts a target's cognitive functions. Target unit gains 150% attack speed and damage and attacks the closest thing to it relentlessly for 15 seconds. After 15 seconds the targeted unit suffers a permanent loss of 50% move and attack speed as a result of brain damage.
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Tier one shares too much with the current Survival Rifleman for my tastes. It's more or less the same thing, but strictly better. I think this is the wrong way to go personally. And I know I get frustrated when say, I roll a Combat Rifle and I have people question why I just didn't get OpsComm because it does the same thing, but Better! Really want to avoid Survival Rifle getting the same nuisance factor from smartass treatment.

    Riposte feels more like the old Repulse, just at first glance. Too short ranged to be a good idea but neat in theory. There's quite a bit of Infested Marines, Banes, Clicks, etc, in Alpha, which would make it a non starter on a fragile class.

    Same with Coup de Grace. It's a nice tip of the hat to Flint as he always wanted something like that. I just can't imagine actually using it for anything but extra knife range. And honestly I don't get many chances to knife in Alpha. So it'd be a strictly Easy Company skill, with the real value being in Knife Range rather than the active skill far as I can tell. I can imagine a lot of nightmare scenarios where the targets you'd want to use it against (Agrons, etc) would probably tap you first since they have a reach that is a bit longer than what the marines seem to get for melee range.

    No problem with the tier three. I only question how it would effect the target's allegiance. Does it turn Neutral Hatred like IVAX, being attacked by Marines and Infested alike? Or does it just go Neutral and is ignored by the enemies? I'd prefer Neutral Hatred, being an enemy of everything. But it wouldn't be as good as Mind Meld, and probably result in dead targets who don't get the full 15 second duration. But I'm okay with that. I rather that option, and having to pick durable targets to get the full 15 seconds on it, than pick something that has the optimal damage threshold and get nigh insane amounts of damage out.

    That's my thoughts on it. Later if I'm feeling particularly inspired I'll throw out ideas of my own for everyone to rip apart.
  3. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    That said.... Maybe I'll do it earlier than guessed.

    Subtlety Tree, renamed Ambush.

    Tier 1:

    M56 Antipersonnel Mine:

    35 Energy, 5 second cool down. Casting Range 2.

    Buries an Antipersonnel Mine at target location. Mine has 2 detection radius. Has a three second "Fuse" before going live. When the mine first detects a target it is put on a five second counter, at the end of which it will detonate in a radius 5 blast. Marines can trigger the mine.

    Level 1: 30 damage. Effected targets receive 1 stack of Open Wounds.
    Level 2: 40 damage. Effected targets receive 2 stacks of Open Wounds, stunned for .5 seconds.
    Level 3: 50 damage. Effected targets receive 3 stacks of Open Wounds, stunned for 1 second and are crippled.

    Make it Count:

    Passive

    Ambush Commando, and all allies within range 4 are effected by this ability. First strike damage is greatly increased, with subsequent shots dwindling to normal effectiveness. (Does not drop damage below normal Talent/Modification/Weapon based levels)

    Level 1: First attack against a target inflicts 100% extra damage. Reduced by 25% damage for each subsequent attack against the same target.
    Level 2: First attack against a target inflicts 200% extra damage. Reduced by 20% damage for each subsequent attack against the same target.
    Level 3: First attack against a target inflicts 300% extra damage. Reduced by 15% damage for each subsequent attack against the same target.

    Consider it a backwards version of "It's Me Again!". The reduction in damage is permanent, there is no "Refresh" or waiting out the stacks to regain. Bonus damage from Make It Count only applies to the primary target of an attack, splash damage remains the same.

    Tier Two-

    (Removed because I regained sanity and saw how bad this would get)
    Rapid Dominance:

    20 Energy, 15 second cool down, 15 second duration.

    Allies within range 5 are effected by the Rapid Dominance effect. Maximum of 20 stacks, stacks last for 15 seconds.

    Level 1: Each kill while under the effect of Rapid Dominance increases attack and move speed by 2%, and damage by 5%
    Level 2: Each kill while under the effect of Rapid Dominance increases attack and move speed by 4% and damage by 10%

    Note: Only applies to Player Character Marines, does not apply to Mindjacked Allies, Mears, Drones, Bots, etc.

    Replaced by:

    Sudden Strike:

    35 Energy, 20 second cool down, 15 second duration.

    Effects Player Units (Including Self) within range 5. Does include units such as: Field Nexus Mindjacked units. X1 Drones. Field Probes. Reapers. Field Nexus. Does not include units such as: Civilians. Lt. Sheng and his Boys. Mears. Devestators. IVAX.

    Level 1: Increases Critical Hit chance, Move Speed and Attack Speed increased by 5%.
    Level 2: Increases Critical Hit chance, Move Speed and Attack Speed increased by 10%.

    E10 Command Detonated Mine:

    40 Energy, 10 second cool down, Casting Range 2.

    Burrows a mine at target location. Mine will not detonate on it's own but requires the commando to select it and press the Detonation Button. Any E10 Mine being detonated will detonate all E10 mines on the map. Radius 5 blast. Can friendly fire.

    Level 1: Mine inflicts 80 Damage, plus 80 Damage for every instance of Stun, Cripple, Open Wound, or Slow on effected targets.
    Level 2: Mine inflicts 100 Damage, plus 100 Damage for every instance of Stun, Cripple, Open Wound, or Slow on effected targets.

    Tier 3-

    Overwatch:

    35 Energy, 30 second cool down, 35 second duration. Casting Range 15.

    Commando marks out a certain location for maximum carnage. Weapons trained on that location benefit from his coordination and experience. Effects all friendlies who are firing in the area, Mears, Bots, Mindjacked, Marines, etc. AoE Radius 8. Note: Effects the area, not just whatever units are currently within said area.

    For the duration of Overwatch all enemies take an additional 25% damage, critical hits slow targets by 50%. Critical hits on slowed targets stun for .3 seconds. Critical hits on stunned targets receive 1 stack of Open Wounds.



    I don't promise miracles with this. Just an idea. Hopefully something worth a damn in here.
  4. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I don't like my thoughts on changing Commando, because I feel like I'm making him with to many similarities to other classes, but here it is.

    Supposed to replace Subtley. Tear it apart mercilessly for me.
    [hr]

    Tier 1:

    Termination Call:
    Applies a debuff to enemies in a target area. At level 3, applies a mini-stun that lasts for .5 seconds.
    Level 1: Enemies in a radius of 12 take 20% more damage. Debuff lasts 9 seconds.
    Level 2: Enemies in a radius of 16 take 30% more damage. Debuff lasts 12 seconds.
    Level 3: Enemies in a radius of 20 take 40% more damage. Debuff lasts 15 seconds.
    Cost: 15 energy, Cast range of 20.
    [hr]
    Small Steps:
    Toggled Ability. 10 second Cooldown, Costs 10 / 8 / 6 energy to toggle on/off.
    The Commando walks slowly, concealing his presence to his enemies. When he reveals himself (Often attacking), he surprises his enemies dealing additional damage.

    Level 1: The Commando moves 50% slower, his threat priority is reduced, His next attack / Ability does 150% damage.
    Level 2: The Commando moves 45% slower, his threat priority is reduced, His next attack / Ability does 200% damage.
    Level 3: The Commando moves 40% slower, his threat priority is reduced, His next attack / Ability does 250% damage, he is cloaked for the duration.
    [hr]
    Tier 2:

    Clean Cut:
    The Commando Teleports and deals often fatal damage to an enemy. If the enemy survives, it is stunned and bleeds fatally.
    Deals 4x as much damage when target is stunned. The target is suppressed for the duration of the skill (not stunned).
    Level 1: Deals 250 damage. 30 second CD. 1 Second stun if the target survives. Applies 10 stacks of Open Wounds.
    Level 2: Deals 500 damage. 15 second CD. 2 second stun if the target survives. Applies 20 stacks of Open Wounds.
    [hr]
    Impending Destruction:
    Units with the Termination Call debuff deal damage to nearby units with the Termination Call debuff. Additionally, Enemies affected by Termination Call move slower.

    Level 1: Units with the Termination Call debuff 10 damage to Units in a range of 3 that also have the Termination Call debuff. 10% move speed debuff.
    Level 2: Units with the Termination Call debuff 20 damage to Units in a range of 5 that also have the Termination Call debuff. 20% move speed debuff.
    Passive. Effect Occurs when Termination Call is applied when the enemy already has the debuff.
    [hr]
    Tier 3:

    Deadzone:
    75 Energy Cost, 60 second cooldown. Casting range of 24. Radius of 6.
    The Commando utilizes his mental prowess and amplifies Gravity on an area. Once started, the Gravity Field will wreck havoc on an area for a few seconds, then dissapate.

    Level 1:
    Units inside the Gravity field have their movement and attack speed slowed by 12% every half-second (Stacking debuff; 1 stack every .5 seconds). Debuff lasts 4 seconds.
    Units inside the Gravity field take 60 (+15 every half-second the enemmy is effected.) damage + 2% (+0.5% every half-second the enemy is effected) of their current health in damage every half-second, Double the effect on massive.
    Heroic units only recieve 0.5% of their current health in damage instead of 6%.
  5. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    I like arcturus's suggestions. And also, arturia's deadzone.
  6. marloelikeswaffles

    marloelikeswaffles New Member

    My suggestion for Subtlety Commando remains the same as it was the last time this was an issue.

    Insurrection 30 energy 30 second cooldown

    Reveals target area for 30 seconds. Zombies in or entering the area have a 50% chance of being mind controlled for 15 seconds. Bosses will be unaffected.
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Blaqk's Agent is basically the Super Survival Rifleman. I know that the Commando has sort of a Super Rifleman feel going on, but we don't want to make it THAT similar. On top of that, it lacks the required oomph for Alpha.

    ArcturusV's Ambush is the Explosives Demo on 'roids with some team buffs thrown into the mix. I like the synergy between the first strike and the per kill buff, but unless we limit it to players only, this can easily lead to Alpha getting completely fucking steamrolled because of the minis nearly instantly slaughtering everything that they come across. Another concern is how long 'til the first strike bonus resets; as I can see stutter-stepping with the Stinger leading to amazing results due to a permanent 100% damage buff. Speaking of the Stinger, combining the first strike buff and the bonus-per-kill buff means that an Ambushmando with a Stinger makes every horde in Alpha completely trivial. Shoot a mob, deal bullshit damage with the first shot because of the first strike buff, get hella buffs from the kills, shoot another mob and get more buffs and get the first strike bonus again because you're shooting something new, so on and so forth.

    Arturia's Subtlety rework is much more along the lines of actual Subtlety, but it has some problems. A slow cloak is not very useful unless it's something that's being used for positioning, and that won't be happening at all in Alpha because of the massive overpopulation of Detectors. On top of that, I'm concerned what the results would be of an overleveled OpComm joining Surgical Strike's damage bonus with Small Step's and dropping a nuke on something. Clean Cut is KMS-but-for-bosses-too, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just somewhat uninspired.

    Impending Destruction can potentially mulch a horde with a single cast, which I think is a bit too powerful of a buff, considering that Termination Call is a debuff. The numbers for ID's radial damage don't seem that high until you realize that they'll be coming from multiple targets, have MASSIVE RANGE, and also have the damage increases from the debuffs, leading to units dealing 28 damage in a radius of 5. For reference of scale, the Technician's Nanites at Level 3 is radius 1.5. The Combat Engineer's Plasma Discharge is radius 4. You could cast L3 Termination Call with L2 Impending Destruction and severely damage or completely obliterate any horde in the game, and what makes it worse is that T2 is reached fairly early. Airlock Horde wouldn't stand a chance, and neither would the entirety of Alpha.

    I think that Deadzone could use a rework. The damage OR the disable would be fine, but the problem lies in the fact that it has both. It has some rather terrifying numbers in both departments, and is basically the DOT version of the Nuclear Strike with a disable added in.

    Marloe's idea... well, I can't say that I like it at all. It's an AOE cast version of Blackout.
  8. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I'm fine with a Stinger Exception on Make it Count's effect. I can see the problem with it and I was thinking more in terms of relatively normal weapons. Since it's a Commando maybe a Shiva Exception so you don't get some 470% damage Shiva. But Shiva use doesn't seem as common in Alpha and Easy Company.

    Same with Rapid Dominance being Marines only.

    Not quite as worried about Overwatch since most of it's effects key off Criticals, and random NPC/Mindjacked allies don't seem to get criticals.

    As far as how long the first strike lasts I was expecting it to be nigh permanent. Thus the talent is less useful for bosses, or necessarily trying to Flint Lckwood a Slasher or something, but the maximum effect being on light targets and midrange enemies like Zoombies, Stalkers, and Devourers that you usually drop in several shots normally.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    March of the Machine does not hold exception for Stingers, nor does Quick Aim. Both massively increase the DPS of the weapon. Players are going to want to use this skill with the Stinger because it's a good skill, and will cry havoc when they find out that it doesn't apply when a multitude of other abilities do. My suggestion to you is to rework the damage bonus based on how many enemies are hit, I.E., if the attack strikes multiple targets, the damage bonus is spread out amongst those targets. Then you have a documented mechanical reason as to why high-splash weapons are not as good with the ability. It also fits lore-wise: Make it Count sounds like a "Make every shot as precise as possible", something that you cannot really do with high-splash weapons.

    Good, but the damage ramp-up problem still remains for the players.

    I like Overwatch, actually. If it gets implemented it could very well mean the triumphant return of the Arms Assault. Dropping Overwatch on any boss while the Arms Assault is running Suppressive Fire/Blood Frenzy means that it's time for Full Moon Party: Stunlock Edition. It would shred bosses fast enough that EC vet/NM would no longer explicitly require a Protection Assault, and the Demo would become the tank.

    Make note of that. Any question that requires clarification should be a mechanical note below the skill information so there's no confusion about how the skill works.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Tier 1-1
    Heightened Senses, 12 cost, 8 cooldown
    Increases damage taken by enemies within 5 radius by 25% for 12 seconds
    Increases damage taken by enemies within 11 radius by 25% for 12 seconds
    Increases damage taken by enemies within 17 radius by 25% for 12 seconds
    At first sight seems like a slightly weaker version of the current HS, but read on till the end and consider how this stacks. Note that the effect will NOT be visible in Fog of War unlike currently

    Tier 1-2
    Mark Target, 5 cost, no cooldown
    Target's threat priority is increased by 2, target is slowed by 5% (ms and as) for 15 seconds
    Target's threat priority is increased by 4, target is slowed by 15% (ms and as) for 15 seconds. Passively increases Commando energy regeneration by 10% if Command and Control is skilled
    Target's threat priority is set to maximum, target is slowed by 25% (ms and as) for 15 seconds. Passively increases Commando energy regeneration by 20% if Command and Control is skilled
    Helps people to use auto attack against high value targets such as slashers and huggers etc or draw attention away from one boss to deal with another threat. Also can keep team focussed on the boss as opposed to wasting ammo firing at things of no import. Added regeneration on levels 2 and 3 to not make it completely outclassed by Heightened Senses+Perception

    Tier 2-1
    Perception, Passive
    Targets under effect of Heightened Senses are revealed to the Commando (0.1 radius sight around unit)
    Targets under effect of Heightened Senses are revealed to Commando and allies (0.2 radius sight around unit)
    Makes Heightened Senses very worthwhile indeed, grants true sight essentially as long as Heightened Senses is active. In a nutshell the team can attack with vision anything in the radius of Heightened Senses

    Tier 2-2
    Command and Control, 30 cost, 15 cooldown
    Allies in 5 radius have movespeed, damage and critical chance increased by 10% for 10 seconds
    Allies in 5 radius have movespeed, damage and critical chance increased by 20% for 10 seconds
    Gives the commando a bit more team support power. DPS and kitability but not permanent

    Tier 3
    Explosive Frenzy, 40 cost, 30 cooldown, 1.2 second cast time
    Target non-heroic is placed under control of the Commando and deals x3 damage and gains +15 armor. The commando can cause the unit to explode at will to deal 4x max HP damage to all enemies in 3 radius around it.
    A weaker mind meld by 10 armor but can cause the target to explode like Khorne's suggestions from a few months ago. Considerable anti-boss capability and some anti-mob


    All effort was made to not take away or supplant another classes' skills and be unique and fitting in 1 theme
  11. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I will be nerfing Impending destruction; 4 / 8 damage to units in a range of 2 / 3. Speed debuff remains.

    Will try to think of a solution for Small Steps lacking mobility.
    [hr]
    Murderous Intent:
    40 energy cost, 15 second cd.
    The Commando designates a target. All attacks / abilities used on the target increase the damage taken of the target by 1 / 2 / 3% for 20 / 25 / 30 seconds. Stacks 25 times. If all 25 stacks are reached, target is stunned every other second. If target dies while designated, slow enemies in a radius of 5 by 40%, double the effect if all stacks were reached.
    Problems: Its-me-again style debuffing, not at all stealthy.
    [hr]
    Cloak and Dagger:
    20 energy cost, 7 second cooldown.
    Cloaks commando for 6 / 8 / 10 seconds. Next Attack / Ability Breaks the cloak, deals 50 / 100 / 150% increased damage and stuns enemy for 1 / 2 / 3 seconds.
    Does not work with Explosives. Nothing surprising about a Damn Rocket at all, except that its a rocket.
    [hr]
    For Killzone, reducing the damage dealt, by a large amount, keeping the slow.
    Just a flat out 20 damage / half-second to light & massive enemies. 12% slow every half-second stacking 8 times, lasting 4 seconds. Lasts 4 seconds.
    Logic being Light & massive: Light units are too weak to maintain themselves from the gravity, Massive enemies are to large to remain unaffected.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Noted that the "debuff" on subsequent attacks for Make It Count are permanent. Considering it is a tier one skill and it's goal, I decided that the best way to do it is that the damage buff from Make It Count only applies against the primary target. Splash damage is uneffected. This should still be good with a Stinger, with level 3 everything but Agrons and Brainbugs on the highest ratings would be one shotted by a direct stinger hit. But only on a direct hit. Also the implication there is that the L3 Grenade Launcher will only get bonus damage on a direct fire hit, rather than Mine Mode. Still might need to tweak with the numbers a bit to achieve the right balance point. But I'm happy with the mechanics of what's going on there. At the very least I think it's an interesting idea, and it'd make sure OpComms have something that can be seen as worth getting after Nuke.

    Rapid Dominance is gonna get reworked. I liked the concept but I can see just how bad that could get. Turn the whole team into OpsComms with 80% attack speed boosts and 200% damage. With ACTUAL OpsComms added on it would be almost a joke.

    Replaced Rapid Dominance with Sudden Strike. Fits the same niche that I was hoping for while being a little less... insane. It does have a nifty Movespeed Bonus on it which I wantd to put in. While the skill is okay for Defensive Actions, I wanted it to shine during Kite and Smite or even pure "Run for the hills!" moments.

    And for Overwatch... well Kith, I always thought the Arms Assault didn't get enough love. I love the concept for a tier 3 and feel pretty happy with it. If only one idea really gets used from my talents that would be the one I'd like to see get in.
  13. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Reworked numbers very slightly and added more explanations to my Sub Com rebuild.
  14. marloelikeswaffles

    marloelikeswaffles New Member

    Well, you don't have to like it for it to be useful to you. My reasoning for having it is it gives subcom a very flexible way to control space. In alpha, you would use this to counteract charging immortals - when they come, putting an insurrection either on or near the team/minis causes random immortals to draw the fire of the rest of them and you have significantly slowed them / controlled them in a way all the "choosable" classes don't have access to. Yes, it comes off as similar to Psi's blackout or Bob's kidney, but those are both very effective tools for dealing with a beefy and difficult to kite zombie group AND ONLY survival rifle has that kind of "get it off" aoe crowd control in alpha.

    In Easy Company, one of the bigger lackings of the Subcomm was range - An Ops CMD could nuke the worms from 1/3 map distance away, but if you rolled a SubComm the team has to either rely on another player or physically travel to each and every worm (not a very attractive idea in -nm). My idea was to have Insurrection and Nuke to have a similar range, so that a Subtlety commando could actually "ult" the worms from the same distance as an Ops Com, and the MC'd zombies would actually destroy the worms just as they would if they had been nuked.

    You could potentially increase his E (the 25% damage skill) into a global buff (at level 3) to all "allied units" to give my revised ult synergy. It's not the most original solution, but it does address the issue of "i have to keep recasting this" in a KISS manner.

    As you can guess, I have a bias against "reinventing the wheel" when it comes to class reworking. As the person who has made the argument time and again that Sub Comm is *not* completely useless (and who popularized it's use in Alpha WITH those arguments) I would prefer that we not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Marloe, Subcomm is not completely useless, no. But it's bad design, and not nearly as effective as the other classes. I don't really understand your bias against reworks because we're simply aiming to fix what is broken and make what is not that great into something better, I.E., furthering the development of the game.

    Also, I'd like to point out that due to the overwhelming threat levels that the marines have, you run into the same problem that Field Engies do with their Zoo: unless their units are physically blocking the way to the marines, the other zombies won't give a shit about the mc'd units and will continue trooping on.

    On top of all this, the whole thing invokes the fifth rule of creating classes:
    Just the basic description is "Blackout in an AOE", and then the extended reasoning that you're giving is "Blackout in an AOE with Nuke Range". The point of having two separate trees is to accomplish two different tasks, not to have two T3s that have the same utility.

    ArcturusV, good. You're going in a better, less "oh god" direction. And yes, I agree with you. I'd love to see the Arms Assault return to high SR games, and if that skill is implemented, he very well would. Dropping that on a boss while the entire team is firing upon it while the Demotank TTD's... the boss wouldn't stand a chance. It'd also make things much more interesting, as the team would be relying on extreme DPS and decent kiting to get them through the game as opposed to the much more passive gameplay of "throw the tank at it and shoot it to death".

    Ghost, I don't see the logic behind your HS/Perception rework. You've basically taken Perception and made it upgrade your reworked HS into what it is now, unless I'm missing something. Mark Target is Laser Designate and the reworked Mind Meld isn't really all that different from what we have now. Why lose the 10 armor, by the way? MM is useful for snagging an offtank if you can manage to get something to attack the unit, so why cripple it like that?
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    HS currently does not give actual vision of the HS targets. It created a red fog in the FoW on affected targets but as you have no vision you cannot fire at them. Cloaked units are not revealed currently either (other than by red fog so you know they might be there but still cannot fire at them).
    The rework makes the commando and teammates actually see the affected units and therefore able to shoot them even though they see nothing other than the unit itself. It also "uncloaks" all affected units, hence it is actually very powerful.
    Consider it like a mass laser designate without the armor debuff and without requirement to flare the area first. As such it does not obsolete laser designate but enhances it.

    Mark target may sound like LD, but isn't. LD reduces target's armor by 5 and grants vision of it.
    Mark Target on the other hand makes the attack move command more likely to target the marked target as opposed to going by normal priority.
    This means that during say muta wave, your team with Mark Target will fire at slashers even on auto attack instead of at mutas. In alpha co they will fire at slashers instead of immortals, freeing up other classes to use their skills to perm kill immortals.
    During queen fights it allows the team to focus on either queen or brood as opposed to lower creeps which may be roaming about but unable to attack you anyway.
    It also slows the target which in itself is a major debuff but requires investment in the skill (hence why it is 5/15/25)

    For MM, +15 armor is still a lot and will make the affected unit generally not take much/any damage. They will take as much damage as a demo with TTD on. Erebos and banes still ignores armor as does Eos for the most part.
    The loss of 10 armor will actually not be felt at all. However I felt it was needed to balance out the skill's newfound explosive power. Merely adding explosion to the current mind meld would make the skill very much OP
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I am aware of how Laser Designate works, Ghost. I am also aware of how threat levels work. I'm saying that I don't believe that there's enough of a difference between the two.

    Mind Meld has always been lackluster because nothing attacks the unit that you MM because of the disparity between threat levels. Khorne's unit explosion concept was to be added to Mind Meld as it was at the time to make it useful. I really don't think you need to nerf other aspects of the skill when throwing that into the mix because that suggestion was made and to be balanced around Mind Meld as it was then. If you were to increase the MM'd unit's threat level, then things would even out.
  18. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Use Mark Target, then Mind Meld.

    LD: -5 Armor
    MT: Increases threat priority , slows target

    IMO that's a huge difference

    HS+Per as I said could be considered like a mass LD only in that it grants vision of all the units. It does not reduce their armor or create a huge symbol above their head. It increases damage taken by 25% as does the current HS.

    To say that the HS+Per rework is like LD is to say that Surgical Laser is Like Saline or Saline is like Combat Hardened or Battery is like Combat Hardened.

    Of course you can compare ANY skill with another and say it is like X but with a difference.
    The magnitude of the difference is what matters.

    Sure I can say Grenade is like a Nuke, it just has a smaller area of effect and damage. Does that mean we should have onyl grenade OR nuke? Absolutely not.
  19. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I take it then Kith that the "Squad Boosting" talents on the Ambushmando are okay. At the very least the IDEA behind them is okay. Hard number crunching and balancing might need tweaking. But I know well enough that such balancing is generally best done after some testing.

    Interestingly enough I noticed after the fact that Ghost and I both have pretty much the same tier two. I'm going to take it as a sign that such a talent is obviously desired and not necessarily a bad idea.

    Anyway, presuming at least the basic mechanics and concepts behind the "Squad" talents in that tree are okay, if not the hard numbers, I guess it comes down to looking at the mines. I wanted the mines to be different from the Demolitions mines/satchels, in so far as they weren't necessarily about knocking out a mob but softening up targets before hand or finishing off targets that you've already hurt. Precision Shot vs. OSOK if you will. Might be too hard of a target to hit. What do you think about it? All you really said was "exploder demo on 'roids" I believe so I'm not really sure where I'm missing my mark.

    Figure maybe the AoE is just too large. More of a problem on the E10 than the M56, since it has the higher damage threshold. Possible problem with the E10 being able to possibly just gut an entire enemy wave, with good planning by the Ambushmando. Not entirely sure if that's a bad thing. I mean it's not like other skills don't necessarily have that ability. And it wouldn't be an easy performance to repeat until a relatively quiet time. Might look at nixing the damage on the M56 and perhaps increasing the disables a bit instead to hammer home the feeling I want on it.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Yeah Arc, I just noticed that your new Sudden Strike reads almost the same as my Command and Control, at half the effect but longer duration and not affecting minis. Without actual testing I wasn't sure whether +20% ms/as/cc would be balanced or not, but considering Weapon Expertise adds 20% to the Ops commando and passively I figured it would make sense.

    I think we pretty much have the same intent behind the skill in making it encourage players to move while it is active (kite) as opposed to just camp as that would essentially make 1 of the buffs not have any effect.

    I was tempted to throw in additional vision and maybe tone down the damage part but my HS+PER would take care of the vision for the most part.

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