Sub Commando and Bosses

Discussion in 'Archive' started by TheMadTecha, Feb 15, 2012.

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  1. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Remaining a "Veteran Turned Psychic" isn't a bad theme for a tree. The only problem Sazier is that it doesn't really hang well together. Perception is just a throwaway talent for the most part. And beyond that the only way their talents really work together is Combat Hardened providing slight regen bonuses.

    Compare to say... the SubMM. His schtick is supposed to be high burst damage. As opposed to one shot spike damage like the AssMM. His skills support this. The Scope gives him the ability to hunt high profile targets and avoid high ground/blindspot ambushes. Concentration gives him a high damage boost for a short period of time. Cloak gives him a level of safety to sit in a precarious spot and unload into the target of choice (And boosts his damage short term with Master of Subtlety), and Shadowstep allows him to quickly evade counter attack or get into a sniping nest as needed.

    The SubComm is just this gaggle of skills that don't really work with one another. That's why the rework exists. I made my own version based on the Commando being someone who sets up "Ambush" scenarios. High first strike damage and the ability to prepare a battlefield before hand to provide high casualties one time.

    I could also focus on making a Developing Psychic for the SubComm, that would fit together a bit better than the current mess. Just haven't seen a lot of demand for it.
  2. poor_newb

    poor_newb Member

    delta is horrible, sub commando is an okay class, sure it could use some improvements, but dont kill it with this garbage
  3. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Note, the Above quote is from the BO Board Post I had made on it, with all of the changes I did to it. I don't like it, but meh, felt like throwing it back out there to a wider audience with its flaws.

    @ArcturusV, you may as well also post your suggestion to Subtly Commando. Wouldn't be a bad idea to show what else was presented on Subtly Commando. I for one, found it Lovely :p
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    This was my Black Ops rebuild (Which was tweaked by feedback I got), of the right tree. Note that it is VERY different from the Subtlety Tree we have now and I worked on the concept of First Strike damage and battlefield preparation.

    Subtlety Tree, renamed Ambush.

    Tier 1:

    M56 Antipersonnel Mine:

    35 Energy, 5 second cool down. Casting Range 2.

    Buries an Antipersonnel Mine at target location. Mine has 2 detection radius. Has a three second "Fuse" before going live. When the mine first detects a target it is put on a five second counter, at the end of which it will detonate in a radius 5 blast. Marines can trigger the mine.

    Level 1: 30 damage. Effected targets receive 1 stack of Open Wounds.
    Level 2: 40 damage. Effected targets receive 2 stacks of Open Wounds, stunned for .5 seconds.
    Level 3: 50 damage. Effected targets receive 3 stacks of Open Wounds, stunned for 1 second and are crippled.

    Make it Count:


    Ambush Commando, and all allies within range 4 are effected by this ability. First strike damage is greatly increased, with subsequent shots dwindling to normal effectiveness. (Does not drop damage below normal Talent/Modification/Weapon based levels)

    Level 1: First attack against a target inflicts 100% extra damage. Reduced by 25% damage for each subsequent attack against the same target.
    Level 2: First attack against a target inflicts 200% extra damage. Reduced by 20% damage for each subsequent attack against the same target.
    Level 3: First attack against a target inflicts 300% extra damage. Reduced by 15% damage for each subsequent attack against the same target.

    Consider it a backwards version of "It's Me Again!". The reduction in damage is permanent, there is no "Refresh" or waiting out the stacks to regain. Bonus damage from Make It Count only applies to the primary target of an attack, splash damage remains the same.

    Tier Two-

    Sudden Strike:

    35 Energy, 20 second cool down, 15 second duration.

    Effects Player Units (Including Self) within range 5. Does include units such as: Field Nexus Mindjacked units. X1 Drones. Field Probes. Reapers. Field Nexus. Does not include units such as: Civilians. Lt. Sheng and his Boys. Mears. Devestators. IVAX.

    Level 1: Increases Critical Hit chance, Move Speed and Attack Speed increased by 5%.
    Level 2: Increases Critical Hit chance, Move Speed and Attack Speed increased by 10%.

    E10 Command Detonated Mine:

    40 Energy, 10 second cool down, Casting Range 2.

    Burrows a mine at target location. Mine will not detonate on it's own but requires the commando to select it and press the Detonation Button. Any E10 Mine being detonated will detonate all E10 mines on the map. Radius 5 blast. Can friendly fire.

    Level 1: Mine inflicts 80 Damage, plus 80 Damage for every instance of Stun, Cripple, Open Wound, or Slow on effected targets.
    Level 2: Mine inflicts 100 Damage, plus 100 Damage for every instance of Stun, Cripple, Open Wound, or Slow on effected targets.

    Tier 3-


    35 Energy, 30 second cool down, 35 second duration. Casting Range 15.

    Commando marks out a certain location for maximum carnage. Weapons trained on that location benefit from his coordination and experience. Effects all friendlies who are firing in the area, Mears, Bots, Mindjacked, Marines, etc. AoE Radius 8. Note: Effects the area, not just whatever units are currently within said area.

    For the duration of Overwatch all enemies take an additional 25% damage, critical hits slow targets by 50%. Critical hits on slowed targets stun for .3 seconds. Critical hits on stunned targets receive 1 stack of Open Wounds.
  5. Sazier

    Sazier New Member

    I put some thought into a more synergistic psychic Commando and this is what I came up with.

    Counter Insurgency or Re-Evolution

    Tier 1

    Heightened Senses - Unchanged, its a good tier 1 skill and fits.

    Focusing Presence - Allies near the Commando (NOT including him) gain a passive buff for every 10 seconds they are in his presence.

    Level 1 - After 10 seconds a 5% increase in damage, attack speed, and move speed in a 3 radius.

    Level 2 - After 20 seconds a 10% increase in damage, attack speed, and move speed in a 5 radius.

    Level 3 - After 30 seconds a 15% increase in damage, attack speed, and move speed in a 7 radius.

    Quote," There's a drumming noise inside my head that starts when your around......"

    Tier 2

    Death Breath - The Commando tears his enemy's mind apart with the wildly savage force of his uninhibited psychic powers; this temporarily disables the commando.

    Level 1 - The Commando can unleash this power every 20 seconds, and it deals fatal damage to a single non heroic enemy. Slows heroic enemies affected by heightened senses by 70% for 2 seconds. Disables Commando for 1 second afterward. Uses 30 energy.

    Level 2 - The Commando can unleash this power every 10 seconds, and it deals fatal damage to a single non heroic enemy. Slows heroic enemies affected by heightened senses by 70% for 4 seconds. Disables Commando for .5 seconds afterward. Uses 30 energy.

    Quote,""Everyone has talent. What is rare is the courage to follow the talent to the dark places where it leads."

    Infinite Potential - Having gained his powers through combat it is unknown how far the depths of his power reach, but not being born with it leaves his body in a state of rejection so he will never truly be able to control his strength.
    The Commandos Psychic field grows in strength and this has.....unintended consequences.

    Level 1 - The Commando releases a psi-pulse in 7 radius that amplifies the affects of Focusing Presence for affected allies. They gain 90% damage and 60% evasion for 5 seconds. Uses 30 energy. (Cool down 20 seconds)

    Level 2 - The Commando releases a psi-pulse that amplifies the affects of Focusing Presence for affected allies. They gain 150% damage and 80% evasion for 8 seconds. Also any enemies caught in the pulse are dealt 125 damage and damages is doubled if they are affected by Heightened Senses. Uses 30 energy. (Cool down 15 seconds)

    Quote,"Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars."

    Tier 3

    Pandora's Box - The Commando lets his mind be one with the psychic plain and releases a torrent of emotion and rage drawing on all the horrors hes seen and lived.

    For 10 seconds Hell breaks loose. Enemies in a 50 radius gain 200% damage and attack the closest living thing (All enemies includes heroic). Non heroic enemies affected by Heightened Senses lose 90% life. Allies lose 33% move speed and unless under the affects of Focusing Presence lose 60% attack speed. Uses 50 energy. (Cool Down 1-Minute)

    Quote,"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. This same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too."

    The grandson thought about it for a long minute, and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

    The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
  6. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    50 radius IVAXing everything (As IVAX is an enemy of everything)? With Mind Meld damage buffs. This is... wow. Best tier 3 in the game I'd say. Easily. By far. Basically anything the Nuke would do, this ability would do better, least as far as sheer damage goes. Minute long cooldown might not be long enough for it. I imagine that in the wake of using this that there would only be a small handful of enemies left alive. And nothing within spitting distance of the characters.

    Side note: I like the quotes. I recognize where you might have gotten most of them.
  7. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Nice way to go out with a bang.
  8. Sazier

    Sazier New Member

    For Pandora's Box I was trying to create something with similar strength to Inception, but an entirely different aspect of psychic powers, ya know? It's probably a bit op, but could easily be toned down.

    Other thank that tho I feel the tree is pretty balanced, but powerfull. Since it doesn't really help the mando to much or help the team unless they try to maximize the potential of Focusing Presence.

    And thanks for liking the quotes I thought they were pretty fitting.

    Also without supply station (even with it) energy will be tight and you will only to be able to fully synergies once or twice during a hold out.
  9. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Bring Them Down
    Description: The demoralizing presence of the Commando shrikes fear into even his greatest enemies, slowing them to a crawl.
    15 Energy Cost, 15 Second Cooldown, 12 Second Duration
    (Above Numbers liable to balancing)

    Level 1: 15% Slow to Non-Heroics, 2/3 Effect on Bosses, 3 Radius
    Level 2: 30% Slow to Non-Heroics, 2/3 Effect on Bosses, 3.5 Radius
    Level 3: 45% Slow to Non-Heroics, 2/3 Effect on Bosses, 4 Radius
    (Above numbers are solid, unless the slow on heroics proves to effective, in which case reduce to 1/2 or 1/3 effectiveness)

    Mechanics: It needs to target an area, like countermeasures. But unlike countermeasures, it needs to effect any enemy that wanders into its range. Counter Measures will have better slows, but it is a "pulse" so to speak, in that it only effects the enemies present upon usage. Bring them Down is like a plague, it effects every enemy it comes in contact with until the end of the skills duration. Making it a passive aura just makes it Foresight, and making it a 1 time effect (like a MS slow version of HS) just steps on Counter Measures toes.

    Gravity Grenade
    20 Energy Cost, 10 Second Cooldown
    (Those numbers liable to rebalancing, mostly cooldown)
    Description: The Mk1 Gravity Grenade, a retooling of White Mesa's Gravity Gun's core technology into a handheld explosive, is powerful enough to crush even steel into a mangled heap. Extremely dangerous when used on organics.

    Level 1: Non-Massive & Non-Heroic Enemies are crushed towards a central point. Massive Enemies are slowed by 50%, Heroic enemies are slowed by 25%. 3 Radius, 4 second duration.
    Level 2: Non-Massive & Non-Heroic Enemies are crushed towards a central point. Massive Enemies are slowed by 50%, Heroic enemies are slowed by 25%. 4 Radius, 6 second duration.

    Mechanics: Crush, not bounce, it is not a retooling of Sonic Traps. If I must prove its doable, I will gladly point you to one of several maps with a similar mechanic if I must. It is also NOT the Mothership's black hole, although that may prove a good visual. If the numbers are questionable, consult me, do not make radical changes. Yes, it is meant to effect allies, and yes, trapped enemies can still attack. Yes this will make it a good griefing tool. But if 10ks are trolling allies with grenades, that's a problem on the communities part. OpComm can nuke an entire team, so I don't see the issue.

    Razor Tripwire
    40 Energy cost, Maximum of 5 active (Use Population cap), 30 second cooldown.
    Description: Simplicity at its finest. Two metal anchor points with a sturdy steel cable between them, all wrapped in the sharpest razor wire available. Maims friend and foe alike.

    Level 1: Tripwire has 100 energy, cripples targets, and deals 30 damage. Bosses suffer only 50% skill effect.
    Level 2: Tripwire has 200 energy, cripples targets, and deals 60 damage. Bosses suffer only 50% skill effect.

    Mechanics: Set up two nodes that must be within 4 distance of each other. Once set up, they cloak and become neutral. Passing between these nodes will instantly cripple and damage friend and foe alike. Node are invulnerable, cloaked, and neutral. Units that contact them can only be injured by the node once. This is mostly to prevent players from griefing by suiciding on a tripwire, causing the Commando to "tk them."

    Each unit that contacts the tripwire drains a certain amount of energy, when it runs out completely, it dies.
    Units will use up the following.
    Non-Massive & Non-Heroic enemies use 1 energy.
    Massive & Non-Heroic enemies use 5 energy.
    Heroic units use 50 energy.
    Players use 25 energy.
    Mechanical units are immune to the tripwire (this is largely to avoid realism breaks, just as crippled mechs in easy co.)

    The Horror
    25 energy cost, 10 second duration, 20 second cooldown.
    Description: A canister filled with the deadly nerve agent perfected by Dr. Hidetoshi Tanaka, it causes unspeakable effects on the afflicteds' minds. It is often used as a last resort.

    Level 1: Units receive an 80% movespeed slow, a 50% attack speed reduction, a 50% chance to incur Madness, and 25% chance to become Blinded. Bosses are immune to the ailments, and only 50% effected by the slow and attack speed loss. Players however, will take full effect.

    Mechanical Units & Structures are immune to the Horror.
    (This is mostly because they don't have minds, and because it would be OP on Ivax, roll with the punches kids.)

    Mechanics: This is a non stacking slow, it will override any other slows. The Delta cannot stack his previous slows with The Horror for something like a 99% movespeed reduction. Kithrixx left this skill very open to interpretation, so I made it very sinister. Also, do not argue the griefing potential of it, if 10k exp players are acting like that, it's the community's fault, not the classes.
  10. ProbeGst

    ProbeGst Well-Known Member

    i ask does these skill use a bit to much?
    WITHOUT COMBAT HARDEN you will be very fast out of energy.
  11. Lord NiteShade
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    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Conservation is a skill few possess these days.
  12. TuRKeYMaN

    TuRKeYMaN Member

    Nite with Razor wire would the player plant one anchor at a time, wait 30 sec then plant the 2nd anchor tol link them together?
  13. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Somehow I'm assuming they plant both at one.

    I'd link the crossbow bolt traps from Bioshock if I had a decent vid. Shoot one at point A, shoot one at point B (provided its close enough), electrified wire between them.

    Here we go.
  14. poor_newb

    poor_newb Member

    My sub commando suggestion. Obviously all numbers are subject to balance changes:

    Tier 1:

    Skill 1: Perception
    (Passive)(Active) All enemies within a certain radius are revealed and take 25% extra damage.
    Level 1: 12 10 radius
    Level 2: 18 14 radius
    Level 3: 24 18 radius
    Comment: Combines the old tier 1 skills into a single skill. Vision is always important for sub commando because of KMS.

    Skill 2: Evasion
    (Active) Commando gains 100% Evasion for a duration.
    Cooldown: 15 seconds for all levels
    Level 1: 1 1.5 seconds
    Level 2: 2 2.5 seconds
    Level 3: 3 3.5 seconds
    Comment: Use this to survive with KMS. Also useful for general zombie dodging.

    Tier 2:

    Skill 1: KMS
    (Active) Like the old KMS, but also stun bosses for 1 second and deal 250 200 damage.
    Comment: For bosses, this should be used with ultimate. For balance reasons, stun duration should be shorter than skill animation. Commando is vulnerable during KMS and should use it along with Evasion to survive jumping into 5 argons. Since Evasion has a longer cooldown than KMS, the player has to decide when to use it with Evasion or not in various situations.

    Skill 2: Combat Hardened
    (Passive + Active) Same as old skill
    Comment: No need to change a good skill overall. The energy regen will be decent for using Evasion and KMS. This skill is not super importantly good that players can also consider skipping it to max both tier 1 instead.

    Tier 3 Ultimate: Bullet Time
    (Active) Duration 15 8 seconds. Commando gains infinite energy. Cooldowns to all other skills in the sub tree are removed. All enemies affected by Perception are slowed 30%.
    Energy cost and cooldown should be high. (Optional) Commando loses all energy after duration is over.
    Comment: For a limited time, the player is free to spam Evasion and KMS nonstop to devastating effects. However, executing this to its maximum potential will require a bit of skill, going too fast and mess up may result in death. Synergy with all other skills in the sub tree. Animation should have trailing shadows for awesomeness.
  15. ProbeGst

    ProbeGst Well-Known Member

    like this one.
    even cover the energy use of spamming.
  16. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    So far this has been the only SubMando proposal that has truly caught my eye.

    I especially liked that you put in

    Without that, a maxed out dual tree Commando could mean that the Inquisition's ships have come to Apollo




    I cannot emphasize this enough. Heh

    That and 15 seconds of spammed Adrenaline + Surgstrike madness
    (I would kind of like to have this one to be honest. :))

    I shall now lobby for this.

    Then again, games where both trees get maxed out will be few and far between anyway so I'm KIND OF OK with it affecting even the whole other tree. :p
  17. ProbeGst

    ProbeGst Well-Known Member

    sorry but it removed sub tree not op. IF it remove all cd for 15 and energy cost... i can see a hole ...
  18. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I appreciate what you've done with the SubComm. I see that you basically took all the little nitpicky things that people mention about the SubComm and tried to fix it. Perception is useless, KMS doesn't do anything to bosses, KMS gets you Insta-Gibbed by Slashers/Agrons/Infested Marines, Mindmeld being too limited in use.

    Worried that "Infinite Energy" would mean that using it would refill the SubComm's energy pool, how skills like Nanoshield and Protect instantly refill the target's shields to max. So change it to "Skills cost zero energy".

    But I mean it doesn't fix the core issues with the SubComm. Particularly you can't help but draw the comparison between the Assassination Marksman and the SubComm, particularly since this version is based solely on KMS spam. In which case the Assassination Marksman (Already a class that doesn't get much play), comes off as strictly better. Monofiliment Cartridge, higher damage thresholds on OSOK. Sure KMS might be more efficient at smiting a random Infestor. But otherwise doesn't really have an advantage.

    But the final nail might be that The Man, in giving us his directives suggested he wanted to avoid this sort of concept or the "Commando as a Psychic". Instead he wants it to be a Support Class (But still fierce!). So it's likely to get shifted into a Team Buffing or Mass Disable class. Considering the desire to be "Fierce", probably Mass Disable. So likely going to see something like the Delta style Commando. Though I'm hoping it does something more creative than merely stacking a lot of slows on hordes. [hr]
    Just to show you the sort of thing I came up with based off his direction. Not what it's going to be but it's one of five or six ideas floating around currently.

  19. marloelikeswaffles

    marloelikeswaffles New Member

    TBH I also like poor's design here. He's given it some good synergy potential without really changing much (K.I.S.S is my school of design). In terms of support, the sub cmd will have 25% more team damage + team vision as well as a boss stun. Plus tbh his version of the ultimate sounds pretty damn awesome. (add in surge for maximum lollerskate and what, like 2000+ damage plus 4-5 boss stuns? sick.) Also the boost from the ult gives him an option to omnislash down a pack of nasties (hulks, colossi, slashers, etc.) which was kind of a weakness of Submando vs Opsmando (who could Surg Nuke). or tank them with evasion. it rounds out the character without changing what made him unique.
  20. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Uh... read it again. I said I liked that he included that SUB-TREE is the only thing affected.

    "I especially liked that you put in

    (Yesterday 06:08 AM)poor_newb Wrote:
    Cooldowns to all other skills in the sub tree are removed

    Without that, a maxed out dual tree Commando could mean that the Inquisition's ships have come to Apollo

    Because otherwise you would indeed see a hole. A very very big hole/crater on the surface of apollo from all the nukes that will hail from above like a rain of angry birds. XD

    Which would be bad. Hence all my image macros/vid.

    But also good. I am salivating at the possibilities.

    These. I too am Imagining a mando with a maxed sub tree who can choose to go Cloud Strife on Agrons
    (Something an AssMM can only dream of doing especially in an NM game where his OSOKs at least will be TwoSOKS without crit) OR, spam evasion with an Adrenaline charged Flamethrower/Shotgun on the big beasties.

    And also the mentioned 1 Target Focused Omnislash of ministuns on bosses. (with proposed shadow trails and optional Surg strike) :cool: Like a bawss.

    As for the energy thing,

    Have it cost 85 energy and at the end of its duration, leave the mando with 0 energy no matter how much it started with.

    Cooldown and Energy issues are pretty open anyway since he did say they're subject to change for balance.

    Oh and this guy can tank Athena for 15 seconds. Now he doesn't really exist in Apollo (it sounds awesome though), sure, but what about Alpha?

    Dr. Tanaka just got himself a new runner. And cerb just met his worst enemy.

    There's also a lot of leeway and potential for Hybrids with this one given the 2 Tier1s of the Sub tree are looking tasty enough to warrant delaying getting your Nuke and/or the non-self cutting Tier2.
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