Sub Commando and Bosses

Discussion in 'Archive' started by TheMadTecha, Feb 15, 2012.

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  1. TheMadTecha

    TheMadTecha New Member

    Now i am sure than any person who was used commando during a proper game (not screwing around in ec) realises that opcmd is far more useful than subcmd due to his dps and nuke ability. Although subcmd is good and fun to play he does lack in 1 area after the removal of being able to mind meld bosses.

    He lacks the ability to effectively counter bosses in any way other than shooting them with HS active. So therefore i have a suggestion that will make subcmd a more viable candidate for high level play.

    I beleive that subcmd's Kill Me Softly spell should stun bosses for a small duration. My original thoughts on the matter lead me to believe that a stun over 6 seconds would be overpowered, so i sentled for a 2 second stun for level 1 and a 4 second stun for level 2. The commando cant be attacked by the target creature during the animation but can be attacked by everything else (same as normal KMS).

    I think this change will greatly increase the subcmds usefullness in high level games and will benifet the game with new strategies on how to take down bosses.
  2. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin


    SubComm is old, he's received no real balance or mechanics changes in over a year, just tiny buffs and bug fixes. What he needs is a full rework. Currently the class is all kinds of gimmick and OpComms will outperform SubComms in every meaningful way.
  3. Nicarco
    • Warden
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    Nicarco Warden

    And Nite would also like to add that despite his best efforts to push the issue forward, the Black Ops have other priority things to work on right now.

    Then again, maybe you should try again Nite.
  4. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
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    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Its coming up soon. From what I've read it should be up for discussion/implementation in the next couple weeks. Currently demo T3 rework is being discussed pretty heavily. Inventory rework is getting done this(next?) week. Pathfinder needs a few balance changes and a couple bug fixes, but otherwise is complete. Subcomm is definetly need of rework, as Nite said, its the eldest of the classes, it more or less has been unchanged since... forever. Ever since I've seen it, 2 Novembers ago, it is still the same Subcomm.

    Hes skill are useful, but the they are all niche, meant to deal with specific situations each. This makes him feel like a hodge podge specialist with no guiding principle to the tree. Perception is anti invis, HS is anti mob, KMS is anti Big Stuff, and MM is Anti Boss/Big Stuff (MM almost anything gives you super dps tank)
  5. Dober

    Dober New Member

    Once I got killed by a blinding, which I kmsed...
  6. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Banes & Clicks deal damage upon death. Not sure about Blindlings though.
  7. Nicarco
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    Nicarco Warden

    Blindlings deal damage? I thought they only blinded? Anyway, it seems like attacks only add ailments on attack, so the blindling needs to explode (or attack) to add blind, or at least that's how I think it works.
  8. Dober

    Dober New Member

    Sorry, I meant clicklling, not blingling.
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Well, technically, the way SC2 works from my understanding, weapons apply an "effect", and that "effect" can deal x damage, apply X behavior / buff or whatnot.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    My rework is unfinished, and probably will remain unfinished indefinitely due to my retirement. However, I'll post the groundwork and/or ideas that I was working towards so that someone could perhaps pick up where I left off. I had several different possible directions, all of which have their merits:

    Squad Leader
    Effectively making him into the Infantry Unit Leader, this aims more to shape his right tree into buffs and auras. The trees would have the same amount of game-changing ability, just that the left tree would be focused on the Commando and the right would be focused on the team. This was the easiest rework to make, but with the event of the Squad Leader concept class, I abandoned this angle in favor of something else.

    British Commando
    I saw Operations as more of an American Commando, one who ran in shouting “yahoo” with guns blazing. Taking inspiration from Company of Heroes, this is more aimed at the British approach to Commando-ism: be quick, subtle, and effective.

    Arguably more fitting of the Commando’s “personality”, this would be handling his offensive nature in a different way: instead of killing the enemy with overwhelming damage, he would be crippling them mercilessly with debuffs and disables until they’re hardly even a threat and therefore easy to eradicate.

    The only thing that I’d say keep as-is. HS fits all three of the possible directions snugly, and is the Submando’s defining ability*.

    *I consider it to be the Sumbando’s defining ability because it’s really the only unique thing that he has, mechanics wise. KMS is just a derpy version of OSOK with a chance to get yourself murdered if Infested Marines are nearby or if you're stupid enough to use it on a detonating enemy. Mind Meld shares mechanics with the Psi Ops and Field Engineer. Perception is dumb and Combat Hardened is super Saline. Heightened Senses is really the only debuff of its kind and therefore the only unique mechanic that the Submando possesses.


    Rework would be a shared sight bonus and detection radius for all classes. Not to give shared vision in the same vein of the Field Nexus, just give all players a bonus to their unit’s sight/detection radius. Otherwise, a very bland ability that needs to be replaced because it’s borderline useless.

    Grants Offensive and Defensive Stance to be cast on allies. The Marine Actions card was to have a button called “As you were” for players to purge their marines of stance buffs to prevent trolling. The stances were to be like Mind Link – infinite duration, but only so many players could receive each stance. Leveling the ability increased the amount of stances that could be applied to players – It was intended to be a Tier 1 skill, so the basic projection was to be 2/3/4.

    Increases attack damage and attack speed, but cuts movement speed.

    Same mechanics as Offensive Stance, but increases movespeed and armor but decreases attack damage and attack speed.

    Casting Offensive and Defensive on the same unit would result in the bonuses canceling out the negatives, but only by a slight margin. Overleveled Opsmandos would be able to take the one level of Stances, cast both on himself, and enjoy a small passive bonus to damage, attack speed, movement speed, and armor.

    The rework was to do away with the bonus health, but retain the bonus to energy. The ailment purge would be castable on allies, and leveling the ability would reduce the cooldown.

    A passive aura that increased experience share ratio by a moderate percentage.

    Supposedly the Tier 3, the Submando would project a cone from his back that increased the damage of allies within the area’s effect. This skill would promote the Submando literally spearheading assault efforts and leading the team from location to location to maintain the damage buff. It would also require the player to have good micro, as they would be leading the charge on a regular basis without the durability of being a tank.

    Actually centered around subtlety and being sneaky. Proper micro and skill use means that little ammo is expended, but plenty of kills are earned.

    Slightly increase range, massively increase damage, large innate crit chance to knife. Crits instantly kill nonmassive, nonheroic targets. Leveling removes the nonmassive restriction, so Submando has a way to deal with Agrons if he’s nimble enough.

    Cloaks for x amount of seconds. Ability use (this includes the knife) does not break the cloak, attacking with the main weapon does. Passively reduces the threat level of the Submando.

    Drops a smoke grenade that conceals the area for x seconds. Allies within the radius are cloaked, enemies within the radius are blinded. One can literally use this to sneak past Agrons and/or knife them to death with Bloody Bayonet.

    Intended to be the T3. The Submando deals 100% more damage while not being targeted by enemies. Using the tools provided above, it would be entirely possible for the Submando to be attacking and knifing a boss at the same time and maintain the increased damage buff if he used the abilities in an intelligent manner.

    Based on being a complete and total asshole to the enemy. Also some disables, those are good too.

    Killing an enemy slows the enemies in a radius around the target.

    Drags all units within the radius to the center of the radius for x seconds. Massive units are not dragged, but slowed by 50%. Can and will affect allies.

    Set up two nodes that must be within 4 distance of each other. Once set up, they cloak and become neutral. Passing between these nodes will instantly cripple and damage friend and foe alike. Node hitpoints are based on how many targets pass through – the more targets that pass through, the more degeneration of hitpoints. The cloak and becoming neutral means that the player that set them up (unless they have detection) won’t be able to see where they are, meaning that team communication is vital to prevent potentially fatal accidents.

    The Submando tosses a chemical grenade full of terror-inducing hallucinogens at the target area, massively slowing and temporarily disabling the attack of the affected targets. It is capable of affecting allies and it has a reduced duration on bosses.

    So yeah, that's really all I had. My rework never really saw completion because I never figured out what direction that I wanted to take it. I hope you guys can get some use out of the groundwork. If anyone does end up using this, I implore you, do not mix and match. The reason that the Submando sucks scrotum right now is precisely because of the mixing and matching bullshit that happened during his inception. He's a mishmash of abilities that have zero correlation to each other and really the only thing that he's useful for doing is saving ammo by KMSing Agrons and providing an offtank via Mind Meld (at least, for as long as it lasts, and if the boss actually goes for the enemy (which is not likely because lol threat levels)).
  11. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Going on a limb and assuming those names are pseudo placeholders. Either way, while I agree HS should remain around, I wish it was remade to "marking" an area as extra damage. Its annoying to watch enemies HS'ed instantly killed. If it designated an area, anything in the area gets the boost. Adds amazing synergy potential with stationary aoe skills (Mines, Satchel, Artillery, Airstrike, Nuke, Stingers). The name obviously needs a rework. Something like "Fire for Effect," "Marked for Death," or "Killzone" would be suitable.

    I like the irony of the this tree. It makes OpComm the "selfish" commando, as all his skills support only himself (and tax the medic). Whereas SL becomes the team focused class. I'm wondering if changing stances is enough micro to warrant the class as a whole. The current subcomm is very low micro, just waddle around and KMS big shit, and HS hordes n bosses. If almost seems like, imo, it'd be too easy to just cast Offensive stance, then use the antigrief feature to disable it when the team is mobile. Then just recast it later. Too hard to truly tell without proper field testing. I do like the concept of lead from the front, but it's a shame SCII's engine doesnt allow unit facing like CoH and DoW2. The visual associated with this skill could be slightly derpy too. In order to avoid looking a dps fart, probly best to apply some kind of "rage mode" visual to the effected units, rather than a huge pie slice visual coming from the comms' ass. My only other real concern is with leadership. What if I get the skill and continue to rambo? Is that just free exp for me. The return should only effect the comm when allies benefit. Something like, the commando gets "X% of his allies earned bonus exp, but he himself is not effected by the skill's normal effects."

    I like this class. For a game without tanking. Somehow his stealth just seems far too much work for questionable rewards. The class of the three seems to take the most skill and a very keen understanding of how it works. However, specifically for Alpha company I just can't see it fitting in. Stealth has almost no real meaning in A-co, given the strong enemies, hordes that are fought in a very defensive manner, and the fact its a very low mobility campaign. Britcomm would make for a decent runner class, but his usefulness is almost nonexistent during Ivax n Perses. I certainly wouldn't risk it. It almost seems like the class would be more at home in Apollo, specifically Apollo route A, but even then I question how well it really would fair compared to SubMM or Pathfinder.

    I think I like this class the most of the three posted. So far there isn't a solid debuffer class. What few non-stun debuffs are scattered across the classes, and no class has more than too. There's also far too many armor nerfing side effects to skills, like on VI and whatnot. Anyways, Bring them down makes for a decent mechanic for the large hordes and a counter to charging on NM. (Would be very unique if enemies effected could not charge, as that has no real counter other than stuns.) Gravity Nade sounds fun, if not gimmicky. Could have some fun synergy by dragging enemies together for stinger/nuke/airstrikes/artillery/satchel combo blasts. Probly of no real use against bosses.

    I like the concept of Razor, but it's a skill I'd immediate avoid in pubs. Simply put new players will forget your warnings or ignore them. But with good communication it could cripple a boss (literally) making non-tanking kite strategies much more viable. Has potential to make Ivax , Perses (if hes effected) far more tolerable on Nightmare, where they are essentially giant wildcards. Depending on the lifespan of the razors, smart players could lay huge ambushing and devastate a hordes movespeed long before it reaches the team, opening it up for serious pounding. Hell you could lay razors around in infestor ally to cripple the bastards, making their frenzy much more tolerable.

    I'm tossed up on the horror. It seems too much like a get out of jail free card. I also wonder what would happen if you cast it on Seth just before his plasma det explodes, or Perses during firewave. It has great potential to really break certain gameplay scenarios. Overall though I like it purely from a conceptual standpoint. I think I like Delta the most, as the other two step on the toes of Mobrec and Medics slightly. Delta remains the most wholly unique and diverse of the three classes, with arguably the largest skill curve. The biggest irk it has it to the potential to grief allies, but given Nukes can wipe a team, that issue is extremely minor.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Squad Leader:
    The additional EXP aura, in theory, only applied to allies, and increased their shared EXP so it would only be useful in the presence of other players.

    Lead from the Front was to be a passive cone effect. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult, considering that the Sub MM and the Technician have forward cone effects. Passive specifically so it wouldn't become a "DPS Fart", and also to encourage the SLmando to actually stay in front of the group as much as possible as opposed to "run forward, pop HS and LFTF, run back".

    "As you were", the antigrief measure, was to disable Stances for several minutes. If the player uses it as soon as it's time to move, then it will be a while before they can be re-stanced. The grace period would be to prevent griefing and also to punish SLmandos that did not re-cast (and therefore remove) Offensive Stance on teammates when it was time to move. The SLmando was designed around Alpha's documented defensive nature, where every obstacle is met with a massive amount of firepower.

    Yeah, I designed it and then went "y'know, this wouldn't actually get very far despite being sound design". It's basically "KMS: The class", sans teleporting gimmicks.

    Gravity nade can tie up an entire horde or group them up for area damage, but it can also get an ally killed nearly instantly if they get dragged into the ball of enemies that it would create.

    As for The Horror, yes, it would be a very niche kind of ability, and a get out of jail free card in many different senses, but I think that a double penalty on allies would make people much less likely to use it frequently. It would not interrupt ability attacks, so Seth's plasma det would still fire.
  13. grandmarshal

    grandmarshal New Member

    Submando is good if u want an extra meat shield...

    in Alpha, unsusprisingly, sub works slightly better than ops in some way.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Not really sure that's the case, Grandmarshal. I mean I know when I do Alpha Company runs the Submando is seen as the way to go for Commandos. However the Immortal Spam early on is one of the great obstacles right now. KMS just doesn't get the job done fast enough on them. Good OpComms though can reach Nukes by then which is really the only reliable way to clear them out and stand a chance. And as things stand that's really the only way to survive it. I mean sure Precision Shot and OSOK whittles them down too. But you usually have a SubMM instead and lately I've seen Survival Riflemen instead (Bad players, bad, combat is GREAT during Alpha Company and always has been!), but like KMS it's just not fast enough to put them down before you get overwhelmed.

    Honestly I like the idea of the Squad Leader Commando type the best out of it. It's a very simplistic idea that doesn't really exist. I could see it filling a niche in teams. Just not sure I like the stance bonuses on it. I mean I can see where it is and why it's that way. Just seems that the names are off as the Offensive Stance would be better in defensive holdouts and the defensive stance would be better for tanks gettin' in the face. But generally not something I'd use during runner portions as I like to be able to sweep away enemies that are blocking my forward progress, which the Defensive Stance would make harder.

    So thinking more like:

    Assault Stance: Increases Movement Speed, Fire Rate, and Ability Damage, decreases Armor and Energy Regen Rate.

    Defensive Stance: Increases Attack Damage, Armor, and Reload Speed, decreases Movement Speed and Fire Rate.

    Though that is probably not an ideal idea.
  15. DrCaptain
    • Donator

    DrCaptain Well-Known Member

    You can do what you want with Submando, BUT DON'T TAKE MY KMS!

    That's it from me for now, more to come after this f#@$ing paper is finished.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Sorry Doc, I don't like KMS, so I designed around it being removed.\

    As for "sub is better in alpha", it's really not. Sure, you save some ammo KMSing agrons and Infestors, and HS is amazing because you have so many minis to obliterate things for you for half of the game, but you cannot deny the raw DPS potential of Opsmando and the sheer utility of nukes being able to get rid of the goddamn immortals. Surgical Strike saves just as much ammo as KMS does because SS can be used constantly and KMS is only good for fat enemies that only come along every so often.
  17. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    I love KMS. It is really fun to use. But if there's other better skills that can be used, I don't mind losing KMS.
  18. DrCaptain
    • Donator

    DrCaptain Well-Known Member

    Ok so my thoughts on Submando are that it is in need of a severe reworking. I love KMS, but that is only because it is fun to use, as Zuriel said. There are indeed better skills than KMS, for instance HS.

    Opsmando is more of a "high DPS from a single player" class. So perhaps Submando (if that is what we will continue to call it) should be like Kithrixx's Squad Leader concept class, where the rest of the team's DPS is increased. After all, HS is a squad oriented skill. Why not make the Submando more team-oriented in terms of increasing the damage done by teammates.
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Honestly, I like Delta the most because it's the most refined of the three, and it's also mechanically unique. It's squad support in a roundabout way, instead of buffs to the other players (something that we already have in the form of the Medic and minor iterations in other classes), it's a tree that is just solid debuffs. Remember, one of the most important things about Character Design is to avoid making classes that accomplish the same task in the same way, because either you make one class better than the other, or you make them the same level of effectiveness and you end up with not enough difference (which stagnates gameplay).

    The Squad Leader route is still indeed a viable choice, but I'd prefer we not do that. NOTD is stagnating as is, I don't really want to re-release the Commando's right tree as something we already have.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I do like Delta as well. *shrug* Maybe I can actually break out my Ranger Talent ideas to see if they could get added as part of that Battlefield Control scheme. Heh. It's not bad. I just fear that Delta can end up being "A lot of gimmicks without synergy" again. But hey, guy like you doing it I'm sure it'll be pretty tight.
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