Shiva Damage and Impact on Boss Fights

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, May 31, 2012.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    The Shiva is currently doing 30,000 base damage. It's fine as a weapon obliterating mobs, but it has too high an impact on boss fights (nulls many fights mechanics).

    I am proposing to reduce Shiva's base damage to 15,000 and reduce the 3 Rating penalty to -1 Rating for using it. It can still serve as a decent damage boost in a boss fight, but won't have too disproportionate an effect.

    Thoughts?
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well... I've never actually seen someone use a Shiva to take out a mob. It's just too unwieldly a weapon for that purpose. The saying "Like going after a fly with a bazooka" applies here. Not to mention most even halfway competent teams don't really need a final option doomsday weapon in order to deal with common trash mobs.

    Simply put, if the goal is to have the Shiva be an anti-mob, "I win one set piece assault" button, it won't be that. Hell, I never played WarCraftIII, but even I have heard that the Shiva was pretty much used to nail one of the bosses in it only.

    Due to being one shot, limited spawn, high AoE compared to Range, long term effects, and insane TK potential, it's only real purpose is Anti-Boss. To think otherwise would be folly.

    So you have to ask, just what do you want it to really do? Considering the problems with deploying it... needing to know where exactly the enemy you want to hit is coming from, irradiation effects, AoE Doom, needing insanely long range spotting ability, etc. I think it should have a high effect on a boss. This isn't an "I Win" button necessarily (Especially since the 300% damage boost skills no longer effect it). Even as it stands there are only a handful of bosses that you can really use it against due to random timings/start locations.

    It's just getting to the point where it seems the Shiva regularly gets enough nerfs I'm even wondering why it's in the game other than "The original NOTD had it". Which seems like a piss poor reason to do anything in general. Well, as the sole reason. It's not at the point of being useless, not quite. But I can kind of see it going that way.

    Only things you can really use Shiva Against:

    Eos - This is tricky, it drops late enough in the fight that Eos is probably running, Koller has used up his artillery, and you will likely have no idea where she is. And even if you do she moves fast enough that setting up a shot to tag her with it is kind of hard. If she's reached the point where she's sitting still as sometimes happens, you hardly needed the shiva anyway and could just tease her out with normal weapons/abilities.

    IVAX - As long as his spawn location remains set, he'll be a viable target to tag with a Shiva. Even then it doesn't really happen all that often. It's just as easy to sit by Dome A with your baseball bats and butterfly knives waiting to mug him when he comes around the corner.

    Perses - High speed, random location, not really Shiva-able.

    Athena - Only use was to bypass Immortality protocol. No longer works. Even then it wasn't used that often.

    Hades Mark II - Haven't seen anyone use it since March of the Machines and Inception stopped buffing the Shiva. He's a hard boss to take out with only 30,000 HP shaved off by a Shiva, and you don't want to cut off half the area you can run around in with a Shiva Fallout.


    Those are my insane thoughts.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    One idea is to extend the aftermath of Shiva into maybe a 5-10 minute death zone to make it more mob appropriate.

    I see where you're coming from. I'm fine to re-tool the Shiva until it makes gameplay sense here in SC2 vs. just copy-pasting a legacy item.
  4. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Hm to make shiva anti mob:
    2500 damage - That kills any mob short of BBQ.
    If you want it to kill Titans and BBQ too, up that to ~9k to be sure. Any more than that is overkill on a boss.

    As for persistent area denial, 5-10 minute duration might be a bit much and way too powerful for Survival and Apollo Sec in particular.

    You'd maybe up the duration to say 2-3 minutes and have the DoT higher, such as 75 per sec.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    A shorter duration also makes it more viable for Anti-Mob work. Not less powerful. My thoughts here is that, with a shorter duration there is a distinct possibility that someone could shiva to take out a mob and incoming enemies, then have an open escape route eventually, they aren't trapped behind the irradiated zone and prevented from moving for five to ten minutes.

    Though the whole nature of the shiva as Anti-Mob... well... Lets reference what it makes me think of:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... sefulSpell

    It'll be right up there with having some 60 MP "Death" spell in a typical Console RPG. Huge costs to accomplish what you normally would do in a round or two anyway.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'll write up a big fancy whatever about the Shiva when I get a chance, but for right now, the gist is this: Shiva's utility in :AM was story-related. When Moraie showed up, things were a bit overwhelming. Spawns were amazingly high, full of REALLY tough enemies, and then things started breaking. You couldn't actually track her on the map once she got within half a map's distance to you because of the EM interference she gave off, and on top of that, SHE WAS INVISIBLE. There was no Perception, if you had no flares and no Field Light, she was going to eat you and there was nothing you could do about it. The Shiva was a workaround: panicking players with no other option could just nuke her so the game didn't end because there wasn't enough firepower. There was a serious penalty to its use: you tore up the landscape and lost some experience and rating because you were using a nuke on your own soil. So, to that end, I suggest that you lose rating or karma or something, because using a nuke of that power is an extremely dangerous shortcut that has extreme long-term detrimental effects.

    The Shiva's inclusion was a specific design decision, and NOTD's was something of an afterthought. I'll cut the Shiva section from the K Report on Weapons and post it here considering that the topic sprung up.
  7. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    What Arcturus said.

    Right now Shiva is so narrow in application that it gives... basically no advantage give that there is only one, spawns in chapter 3, and has to be found. Its purpose of anti mob ends up doing virtually nothing in EC since you have Nukes and Armageddon. In alpha you have seemingly every doom AoE ability in the game, so no help there. IN Apollo, by the time you can use it, there is the athena dome spawns, which it will NOT bail you out of, not to mention most teams simply spam disables and let the 3 thors crush everything. For hades, the only time I see Shiva used is that your tech/thors are dead and team is fleeing from hades and needs to drop that last bit of HP off in desperation.

    All in all, its a niche weapon that I've really only used to OHK Athena with nowadays, and if that no longer works, it truly serves no purpose anymore, for Aoe Control Demo/FO/Mando/SMM+Stinger can and do suffice.
  8. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    What Arcane said.
    If we can actually find the damn thing... 30k dmg is not even a big deal.
    It's percentage of being found in any other storyline is slim to none.
    Maybe like 2%.

    Survival its more likely to be found because people are desperate to search every corner they can while kiting huge mobs, not to mention every item drops in the beginning and they re-drop again in 20 waves.

    As for our story lines... Shiva drops at Chapter 3 in the midst of all this crazy shit we're already dealing with that leaves no room to finding this bad boy, especially if we want speed.
  9. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Would it be possible to make the shiva drop earlier (even chapter 1) but be unusable until chapter 3?
  10. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    ^ No permission to fire it until a certain time; firing it before permission is granted results in a massive penalty could actually be a lore-type thingy.

    I'd rather see Shiva have 2 "modes" in the sense that the Shiva can be equipped to fire a "dirty bomb" and do around 2500 damage, but have a very long lasting AoE damage effect that is more potent, or a "clean bomb" and do around 15000 damage, and have nearly no lasting AoE effect.

    This could make people employ strategic thought into how they want to use Shiva, though, I could see the primary problem being programming or implementing that, and the amount of rage from accidentally firing off the dirty bomb and effectively trapping yourself (user error).
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Based on what Kithrixx said above... I wouldn't mind the Shiva being a story based weapon only. Let it do insane things. But no longer in survival mode. No longer just a random chapter drop. But tie it to events like Athena's release or the IVAX unit.
  12. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I've temporarily removed Shiva from the game until we find the right usage as a plot item. Feel free to brainstorm.
  13. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    It depends; do you want to have it used in all 3 Storylines, or just a specific one?
  14. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • CN/TW Liaison

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    What about dropping it as the final line of defence in Easy Company in the event that even fire missions failed to bring down Eos? I'm thinking maybe a minute or two after the shells run out, General Koller contacts Easy Company and says: "Very well, I will authorise the use of Shiva, hold out until it arrives and bring her down for good. For those of you out there still alive, I pray for your safety, that is all." before all communications are cut, and then the players will have to survive for another five minute ETA before Shiva arrives on the designated place marked on the map.

    Also, maybe a reduction in player ratings each time the queen fight goes to a new stage starting with arrival of tanks, just for taking too long to kill her?
  15. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well, the obvious storyline points where Shiva deployment may make sense, both for an In game perspective and story would be:

    IVAX in Alpha Company:

    It's a monster which has neutralized a lot of assets, and since Koller and Crew have had experience/knowledge of the behemoth from Apollo Security Team it makes sense that they might okay such a weapon. Not to mention that because of his HP a Shiva is a very significant threat to him (At least if it doesn't get cut down to 15,000 or less. Even then it might be worthwhile). And it's about the only boss in Alpha Company that doesn't spawn right next to you, have Immortality, or random spawn locations and high speed.

    Athena in Apollo Security Team:

    It used to be used to one shot her. She's obviously a highly dangerous creature that the Apollo Security Team shouldn't believe they can kill on their own. At least based on the dialogue about how a ton of Security Personnel died just to subdue it originally. With the heavy dome spawns it just makes sense as an option for the fight.

    That said, in either of the above situations I wouldn't want the Shiva just randomly dropped somewhere on the map during the sequence. Nor would I want it necessarily teleported right into a player's grubby little mitts/at his feet. It should be something that can at least make sense. Off the top of my head I'd say something like going to the Comms to get access/launch codes for the Shiva, then going to the Starport/"Military Base" in order to retrieve and launch it.

    Thus the sequence I necessarily see for it would be like:

    General Koller: ... Approval for heavy nuclear ordinance has been given. Sending launch codes now.
    A marine (Or two), have to head to the Comms hex to get the codes. To prevent it from being an instant launch by having a Runner go to both locations necessarily something is done like using the Comms hex gives a marine a "Launch Codes" buff. That same marine needs to access the "Security camera" hex in Starport while having the Launch Codes buff, which lets him trigger a Shiva anywhere on the map.


    This means that you'd need at least one runner, and most likely at least one spotter who has team vision skills like Surveillance Flares, Recon Flares, Road Flares, Mind Links, whatever. It's be unweildly to deploy necessarily limiting it to anti-Boss use for the most part. Even if they try to "Save" the Shiva in order to kill the final boss.. well... good luck tagging Perses with that. And because of the Force Teleporting you can't access the Starport for Hades.

    Just a strange idea.
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I would say in terms of Dramatic Endings, Apollo B & Easy Company could easily find a way to fit this in.

    For Example, after Hades 2 Dies, it starts to mutate again, and so Cinematic Shiva kill Victory, though, in that case, I'd prefer the terrain around Hades corpse is formed into a Crater.

    As for Alpha, the only time I could think using a Shiva as a plot-point would be against IVAX, considering we are talking about what should be a hulking mass of OP and Godliness. It was noted in Apollo, they couldn't even dent IVAX, and considering the same weapons are used against it in the next story-line and easily take it down, it doesn't exactly see nice continuity. General Koller call's in an Air-To-Ground SHIVA strike to soften IVAX up, so that the marines have a chance of taking it down. Said SHIVA weakens IVAX into its current state.

    Could display IVAX as having a metric ton of health, and then Koller calls in SHIVA strike(s) drastically dropping it when IVAX is X distance from the marines, and they engage shortly after the SHIVA hits Ivax.
  17. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Not bad. Though I'm not a fan of the Godbolting method necessarily. I think it's more dynamic (read: Fun) if things like that are under the control of players instead of just being random boons that Koller automatically rains down from heaven.

    The difference being:

    Players meet Obstacle. Players use cunning, ingenuity, and skill to overcome Obstacle. Players feel a sense of accomplishment.

    vs.

    Players meet Obstacle. DM/Koller/God/Computer triggers an automatic event that evens the fight. Players use basic tactics to win.

    The latter isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean that's more or less how the Dark Elf is killed in Final Fantasy IV. And that was great scene in its own right in a game full of great moments. But when given the option between the two, I favor the former.
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Well, I wasn't too sure how you could ensure player's get a SHIVA in any sense of those, mainly because of how it normally was randomly spawned, and as such, I preferred to not have a game ruined because of troll item spawns on an item that is supposed to be a major factor being in an remote region of the map, considering this is supposed to be an item that the storyline is reliant upon to progress.

    In another thought, to align it more along the former, General Koller calls in a SHIVA strike, however, IVAX destroys it after detecting it and remains undamaged from it, in which case Koller notifies Alpha Company he is dropping down a Shiva at location X or that they can gain access to a SHIVA by going to the Communication Tower for clearance codes, then head to the Armory to unlock the SHIVA, attack Ivax with it, then engage to finish him off.

    As for Apollo B, they could likewise do the same, and unlock a SHIVA, because they note that the zombie hoards have become increasingly potent and powerful, and that they may require such a weapon in the event an unstoppable monstrosity is released. This could be done before Athena to use against her, or after Athena to use against Hades, which would then be used to finish his second form off (in the sense that it's shell becomes hardened, and becomes immune to most conventional weaponry).
  19. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Note that's pretty much what I suggested myself. Though instead of Armory I chose Military base. Though instead of an item it was a one time hex based trigger. Which I think serves better as it ties the use of a Storyline item to a Storyline event instead of it just kicking around to be used outside of the events it was meant for.
  20. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Ooh, lawl.

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