Rifleman Discussion

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The arms assault or the combat rifleman, Arturia. I still steadfastly believe that the Weapons Proficiency skill was always supposed to be in the Combat tree. The fact that the support tree is the one that gets the most powerful weapon over the dps one bugs the piss out of me.
  2. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Well, the Survival Rifle has a single talent that justify's having it over Combat Rifleman. Yes, it bugs me out to, but most of the time, if there is no Arms Assault, it would be handed to the Survival Rifleman, simply because of that skill; which is out of place if you ask me. Though there isn't a CG in public games where this would normally occur.

    I honestly believe it should be swapped with Combat's P-Shot, except a bit more powered to offset the fact that he likely won't have the Damage to back it up like the C-Rolf.

    Rifleman, and Marksman are the only classes I would legitimately Hybrid as a build. I could see a Demo getting 1 point into I'm your Father to be able to more effectively bait enemies into his mines.

    Rifleman would be simply to get Survival Weapon's Prof + Imprv. Focus Fire & Rapid Fire + Crit. Strike. Not like you can't get that going pure combat though, given how easy it is to get a good distance into your second tree, making it seem stupid to hybrid like this.

    Marksman would be getting the 3 Critical Strike then going Subtly. Critical Strike is a major damage talent, though in comparison, its really just a 10 / 20 / 30% increased damage dealt buff that is unreliable, but can give dramatic results when it goes off.

    Besides for 1 point and talenting, I don't see hybridization occur often. (1 point for a critical / useful T1, and then go the other tree)
  3. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Which is why I'm putting Weapons Proficiency in Combat (with adjusted numbers, of course) and switching Scope and Critical Strike doing things to the Marksman tree. More cohesive design for everyone!
  4. FlintLckwood

    FlintLckwood New Member

    RE: HMG Discussion

    I support the Weapons Proficiency skill remaining in Support. Why?

    Well, for one, its the weakest of the Rifleman's passive weapon buffs. The only time the reload time is a major issue, is when the weapon in question has a massive reload time, such as a missed NM reload or the HMG. Not exactly gamebreaking.

    Weapons Proficiency gives the support Rifleman his only passive damage boost. Yes, Focus Fire is a decent damage buff, and Survival Rifleman can further boost it's effectiveness. But, that costs energy (no I'm not trolling you), Once the survival rifleman gets the (omfg-awful) traps, and if he went Saline, his energy is needed, even with their insane energy regen speed. Also, Repulse, their T3, another energy skill, more reason to save it for that rather than use focus fire.

    This skill gives the survival Rifleman a good constant buff to damage, that also doesn't step on the combat Rifleman's toes, because he doesn't get anywhere near the damage buff, and the fast reload speed lets him enter a niche completely different from the Combat Rifle, aka HMG.

    And it even fits lore wise. Combat Rifleman learn how to use every weapon quickly (rapid fire) and efficiently (critical strikes), they even get a further bonus ontop of this when consumed by a combat high (Bloodlust). Survival Rifleman, on the other hand, sticks to his standard weapon, and learns it more intimately. He isn't able to pull of the crazy hits a Combat Rifleman is (damage bonus vs critical hits) but is able to use the weapon more effectively than other characters (the damage bonus by itself). Also, he does gain a slight advantage when using his weapon over the Combat rifleman (reload time increase), but this bonus doesn't actually overlap into areas of the Combat Rifleman's expertise.

    Ta Da, Lore.
  5. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Agree with Flint, and i think Survival rifleman is all about efficiency and how to use weapons and use what he has in most effective way to Survive, which seems relate to Reloading speed and skills he has, and in opposite side, Combat rifleman is more about burst out huge firepower in short period of time to pull out huge damage, like mad man, which seems not in the field of being efficient as Survival rifleman.
  6. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Well, Precision Shot being a Disable is a bit more survival oriented than increasing Reload Speed. Least I'd think so. Particularly since you can gimp enemies who are Sonic Trap Immune. As well it's okay damage. Not great, but okay, which can help out the leveling curve as you snipe out Devourers, Hulks, Immortals, etc. Still a bit of damage being the point. Something like that.
  7. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Rifle would have too many actives in survival. He would posses not a single passive skill, and combat would have 3 passives. Combat would literally devolve into "get passives" "get bloodlust" "Spam 1 button all game."
  8. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: HMG Discussion

    And then we could rebalance or redo Rapid Fire and everything would be just goddamn peachy. And it'd be even better if we could get a threadsplit because we don't need to discuss the Rifleman's skills in the fucking HMG topic.

    The Combat Rifleman, being so intimately familiar with weapons and more skilled at handling them, should be much better at base damage (as his aim is better through practice) and rapid reloads (considering he's fighting on a much more constant basis than the Survival Rifleman). Counter Lore.
  9. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    You guys get off topic far too much. Worse than the normal boards.
  10. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    [​IMG]

    Anyways. From a lore standpoint and a design standpoint, Weapons Proficiency should be on the Combat Rifleman and not the Survival Rifleman. We've already set the precedent that DPS skills don't belong on support classes, and the Survival Rifleman is a support/disable. Yes, he'll be a shitload of actives, but he's got more than enough regeneration to support them. We'll adjust the energy cost of Precision Shot to make it not eat energy like candy and everything will be just absolutely goddamn peachy.
  11. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    Nope, Weapon Proficiency does nothing to do with any idea of being DPS. Combat rifleman is all about fire all you have to kill without thinking backup plan. You kill it before it reaches you.
    But Survival Rifleman is totally opposite to combat rifleman. Use everything he have efficient way for teammates and himself. Which makes this class very interesting
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I wouldn't quite frame it up as that. You're making it sound like the Combat Rifleman is some raging berserker... aka, standard FPS player who isn't a sniper camper... chucking grenades at everything, indescriminate fire... like he's permanently under Madness. And making the Survival Rifleman sound like he's some consummate warrior elite who is all about being highly skilled and disciplined...
  13. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    Combat rifleman's animation is raging berserker and it fits its role more than anything and has its own unique style.
  14. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The Survival Rifleman is about keeping people the fuck away from him and self sufficiency. Traps, focus firing enemies so they slow down, aiming precisely for vital areas, overloading his combat suit to produce an energy field that stuns enemies so he can escape. The Survival Rifleman is a much more defensively oriented mindset than the Combat Rifleman, who is offensively oriented. The Combat Rifleman is about killing things before they get to him. It's common sense for that to include handling weapons on a regular basis and learning how to reload quickly so you can keep shooting, considering his job is to put as many bullets into the enemy as quickly as possible so they don't come beat him up.

    I really, really, really don't understand why Weapons Proficiency is on the Survival Rifleman. It's perfectly tailored to the Combat Rifleman's playstyle, and out of place on the Survival Rifleman because he's support/defensive.

    We don't need a DPS increasing skill on a support class.

    Edit: A gunner berserker would learn to rapid reload so his gun doesn't go click click click when he's trying to mow down enemies. If anything, he'll go into a state of combat time and do it as if it was a natural motion.
  15. QuantumMech

    QuantumMech Well-Known Member

    Having taken to playing solely roflman recently, and loving almost every moment of being the combat rofl, as much as I would love weapons proficiency on the combatrofl, it is a no-go. I'm sure anyone who has played combat rofl and gotten to weapon prof has loved every moment as reloads just blow by, and nobody cares. However, even though it would be balanced, would it even be worth it? 50% reload time is ridiculous, so that would most likely be nerfed, possibly have it be on a "charge" system, gathering reloads over time or possibly having each on consume energy (or kith can just say screw you quant i want my way) but from Ability's "Make 'em micro" isn't playing combat rofl supposed to have you focused on more your auto attack, hitting reloads, not whiffing them in the middle of bloodlust, and actually pay attention? I know that as surv rofl, i care less (emphasis on less, not not at all) about auto reloading. On combat rofl, those reloads are insanely important. I do agree that precision shot and weapons proficiency could logically be swapped, and they would make tons of sense in the other tree, but switching weaps prof would simply break the idea of combat rofl: shoot, shoot shoot, and don't stop shooting. Weapons proficiency should be the reward for doing incredibly well, because by that time you have most likely earned it.
  16. Faneria

    Faneria New Member

    "he's got more than enough regeneration to support them"??? Rifleman en regen is high, yes but it's not for the rifleman. Rifleman base energy is 100 and trap cost 65. even rifleman spam only trap, the energy still run out because it can't regen in time, don't even need to talk about focus fire. IF rifleman use focus fire and trap in the same time, his energy will run out fast and now you want to add precision Shot. Actually, the rifleman is already fine as it is, no need to change anything unless someone have better idea for that.

    "I really, really, really don't understand why Weapons Proficiency is on the Survival Rifleman" Flint and Maniac already expalain about that can you plz reread and understand it?
    P.S. i agree with flint and maniac
  17. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Though to be fully honest the energy issue only really exists because of traps. If you do nothing but lay traps you have about 5 seconds after Sonic Traps refresh until you can lay another trap.

    ... and I dislike Traps myself. Have for a long time. We COULD (But I doubt we WILL), move Precision Shot over, get rid of traps, and get something else in it's place that focused on Control/Survival without being... well... what Traps are... quite game breaking or nigh worthless depending on the storyline/mob in question.
  18. Kith
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    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Quant, more than likely, Rapid Fire will be replaced with something less... passive and silly.

    Faneria, I read the fucking post. Stop assuming that I don't read posts when I disagree with them. Your condescending tone is starting to irritate me. I'm trying to have a discussion, not insult people, and that's becoming increasingly difficult the more you try my patience.

    Anyways, in lieu of moving Precision Shot over, Precision Shot will be adjusted in energy cost, and so will Sonic Trap. He will have more than enough energy to sustain constant use of his skills.
  19. Faneria

    Faneria New Member

    "Though to be fully honest the energy issue only really exists because of traps" then what about repulse? and focus fire? they don't need energy?.

    ArcturusV, Can you explain how the trap is game breaking and worthless?[hr]
    Kithrixx, I never have any intention to insult you but from what I see from your reply, you fail to understand what are we trying to tell you and that's why i asked you to read it again because you might misunderstand something.
  20. QuantumMech

    QuantumMech Well-Known Member

    OK, but I would like to raise one question, what if we rebuilt the roflman? We have the technology... if that sounds somewhat appealing, I'll get started on it, if not, well, I can always think to myself that it was a good idea. Traps do seem rather silly, even though they have their usefulness, they are silly.

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