'Pub has become hell'

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Niktos, Feb 11, 2013.

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  1. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    A few points to kind of summarize...

    1) The tutorial will be an entirely seperate map and as Lyanden indicated, it will be entirely to teach mechanics so people are not busy sorting out how to equip a Flamethrower while mobs are crushing them in the Military Base or they have Tart chasing them. It will probably (depending on how Ability wants to do it) have no bank assoiciated with it at all, so no XP gain loss or anything, just assigned classes with a step by step walkthrough of each game mechanic.

    2) Due to both age and people's familiarity of with it, the beginning of EC Recruit is seen as "ok" when in fact it is not, it really does give very little direction on where to go and why, and also some really basic combat tactics like withdrawing to crystals or truck or anywhere BUT the middle of mining camp, same goes for Military Base. I intend to add more visual stuff similar to what you see in the campaign in the mission The Great Train Robbery, in order to make it explicit to new player where they must go (This stuff will only appear to <500 XP players, after that it becomes annoying).
  2. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    I've been playing more pubs than occasionally now to mostly help new players and to watch out for those that violate rules. At certain times, I do ask the new players what they think about other veterans and I have received responses that are positive but most are negative.

    Example below in screen shot from today.

    If you are going to pub and not teach that is fine, teaching is a handful when you do it by yourself.

    Just don't go and be a snob and think you are high and mighty just because you have more than 10k xp. Also if the new players ask for help, then at least answer their question, its the smallest thing you can do.

    Here is a screen shot of what one of the newer players had to say.

    I should also add that he mentions that when he asked for help from other veterans they simply ignore him and let him turn into cannon fodder.

    I suggest when you guys pub, you guys ask the new players their opinion on their community because how we act in those pubs is reflected back on us in this community. I'm not saying everything will always be perfect, but it doesn't hurt to try and give the community a better image. A lot of the new players have thanked me for taking the time to guide them through NOTD, though not always successful I do my best to help them. Even if they don't appreciate it but at least understand how to play NOTD better than I have done my job for that game.

  3. ForeRunner

    ForeRunner Well-Known Member

    I couldnt agree with you more Extifer.

    @AP for the tutorial map a thought is to run them through the basics of each of the 3 starting classes and especially the use of the marine action menu. what Im thinking is start them as a rifleman and go over the basics of picking up equiping and using effectively various weapons/ammo. Then you move them on to an assault and teach them the usage of both armor and medical ideas as well as giving them a sense of what a 'tank' is supposed to do. Then you move them on to the medic and teach them the basics of learning talents using talents and marine actions, and as such can teach them which medic abilities cure what ailements.
  4. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Excellent suggestion.
  5. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    Okay, this is going back to what Ozymandias and Lyanden was doing before NOTD hit the spotlight with "HELP A NEWB FOUNDATION"

    But with our current NOTD channel almost maxing out the 100 player limit, a bunch of people who do play pubs and teach should go to NOTD2 Channel and bring new players there as well, if the original NOTD channel is too full.
    I can forsee at least 10-20 of us who actually teach go to this channel and with that bring new players there as well.

    This is definitely what we should do if NOTD channel is too full.
  6. Time

    Time New Member

    I just wanted to point out a lot of people in pubs don't listen very well, hopefully you guys hit on sticking together b/c in pubs even when you tell guys to group up you'll inevitably have one or two stragglers who just wander. Also I think it would be good on making clear that it's not good to push out during waves. People will defend then b/c everything is being cleared close to the group they will continue to creep out to the edges till they're overrun.

    I don't think they understand the importance of using the appropriate weapons for different enemies either. For the longest time I could not figure out why most of the new people were constantly getting wiped at airlocks. Now I'm pretty sure it's that they just continue to use the starting weapon and they can't take out the hulks/argons fast enough. Most of the time I have to just dive in to keep anyone alive.

    Actually another good thing which I don't understand is even when you say things like "ok don't let this hit you" or "make sure to kite this" they'll continue to just stand and attack something as it's smashing their face in. These are all the way way common things I see. Oh actually they don't seem to know how to skill well/don't use skills and don't know about stats.
  7. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • Community Leader

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    Save those who can be saved, let those who don't listen run off on their own and be killed, I find that using a lot of pings and constantly revealing marine locations help people regroup easier.

    Don't push so much knowledge to new players, they may need time to get use to the NOTD environment before learning about different weapon types and different effects, the tutorial map will be doing that in the future.

    If they don't understand the concept that "If you die, you won't come back alive", they would try to kill the zombies and only run if they're on red health (by then it'd usually be too late), anyone with 500 or under may need reminders for that.

    I suggest that stat points are locked until you're at least private first class (with reminders at the start of each game for people with 100-500 experience), just so people can focus on playing the game before having to learn about features that augment your character.
  8. Osaze

    Osaze Well-Known Member

    I really don't understand why you ppl think pub is hell. I played two of them today. The only person over 500 xp was me. Won both of them, even with one tker I took out cuz he annoyed me. You need to quit looking to others for your failure. Play better. Lead better.
  9. ForeRunner

    ForeRunner Well-Known Member

    Pub isnt a problem with a vet to lead them in my experience...the problem occurs when 8 fresh new guys join into a pub and have zero clue what is going on
  10. ImaDomo
    • Donator

    ImaDomo Clad In Armour

    Lol I been in pub alot lately, seeing how new members are, I found when I try to help them they just don't listen. Or in the worst case scenario they're afk or are doing their own thing.The biggest issues are them going hybrid when you tell them it's better to stick to one side or them not going to where you ping or following you.
  11. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Actually this is a major issue in pub. Team triggers. Having team triggers to start certain sequences is a pain. Eg airlock. Because u need all team to be in the outskirts or it will not trig. If someone is all the way in ec and you can't -vk due not enough players a lot tend to leave.

    Osaze: winning pub isn't hard. The vets in here want to help new players. The noobs that still can't solo a pub due to lack of skills and not wanting to teach are the ones that think "pub is hell".
  12. Time

    Time New Member

    This was mostly in response to Extifer's screenshot of someone saying vets leave them to die. While I wouldn't consider myself a vet(only 3k-ish xp) I think a good number of those complaining about vets letting them die also fall into the category "I'm going to wander alone by myself when I don't know how to kite properly"

    I think it's still important to hit on this b/c new people in pubs skill very selfishly and tend to to not go for abilities and also how quickly this comes into play in easy company. I've had games where we have had upwards of 4 rifleman who all skill into the combat tree and yet somehow don't have grenades. When you get to this point the people need to know that they have to use a different weapon to take things down like hulks since they have no ability damage.

    I think that's a pretty sweeping generalization to make. I'm new but I can solo a pub and I'm willing to teach (I've had games where it's just me and one other person b/c all others are dead where we go through it and I'm explaining things the whole time) But I still think pub is hell
  13. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    Actually a good number of them were following my instructions. It's quite disappointing when I read about stuff like that in pub games about what some of the vets of NOTD do.

    Most players that wander off are the ones that don't listen, which is fine. I do state specifically of every NOTD pub that NOTD is a team based survival game and that one shouldn't rambo.

    Also you cant feed too much information to new players at once.

    It's just like how you can't expect everyone to master Calculus in the Span of a 1 hour lesson. They need to practice and when they practice, they will learn things that they didn't know before which will increase their overall skill sets. However, they need the foundation to start, which is what most vets should try to provide.

    We're not talking about the game, we're talking about practice. - Allen Iverson
  14. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Being new doesn't make you a noob. Being old doesn't make you a vet. Being able to solo a recruit game doesn't make you a good player. Being able to keep 7 0 xp players alive to the end of a recruit game does make you both a vet and a good player, and if you can do that then you won't think pub is hell. Now that your personal skill is up to par, work on your teamwork and leadership.
  15. Zero

    Zero New Member

    Wow, you read my mind. Keeping 7 0 xp players takes alot of skills and keeping them alive too me is a perfect way to polish your teamwork skills and your way to help out your team with whatever unit you use. Playing with new people is a great way to polish your skills and challange yourself in a heavy teamwork. For example, I played like 20 pubs game last week. It's challanging but all I tried to help and win with everyone alive to give them the feeling how NOTD is played. My favorite quote, "I won't let noone die without a fight" :D
  16. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    While those newcomers who don't listen are the norm and as little as control we have of the outcome of those players, there is one thing that strikes my mind.

    I'm thinking if we were to teach these guys properly, we shouldn't try to obtain speed in pubs. I know its heart-wrenching, but maybe this has to be.
    The newbs are going to be slow.. and confused. Rushing for speed definitely does not help. Maybe with this in mind we'll be able to group and teach our newbies better.
  17. Time

    Time New Member

    From my experience in games where I've been people with high xp/ "vets" are usually helpful. I think I've had one or two games where they just completely went off and did their own thing at holdouts etc. but the vast majority seem to want to help do don't feel too bad :)

    You'll probably always have a small group of people who won't help.
  18. Osaze

    Osaze Well-Known Member

    I tell the newer players I see that I can show them exactly what needs to happen for them to have a chance at winning. I also point out very simple information such as how to use the interface. Yeah thats hard sometimes when you are in the middle of a fight or they don't listen, but it needs to happen. As long as you don't try to be a dick about it or lord it over them that you are so much better than them I have found the majority will listen. This isn't a new issue, this has happened several times before that the game has had an influx of new players that don't have a clue what is going on. We fixed it by teaching then, and you can fix it by teaching now. Anyone that plays with me knows i'm not an easy guy to play with, but i'm also not a dick about things. Either you take it upon yourself to improve them or you don't play with them.
    BTW just cuz it says junior member doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about here :)
  19. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    F15 (f10+P)
    Agreed tho. Not sure why rush for speed which is only 10xp. You could easily save extra 10 civs and make up for it.
  20. Osaze

    Osaze Well-Known Member

    The problem with not going for speed is that newer players think the game is too long as is. I have a lot of new players leave after chapter 1 because they didn't realize that the typical game was around an hour 30 mins. Considering that the majority of games that are out now cater to the mindset of faster/more games and not one long experience like a typical rpg type would be. NOTD is like a subset of RPG/RTS that really caters to a smaller playerbase, generally older players. I haven't tried looking for it but has anyone bothered finding Ability's original design specs for what he wanted this game to be? That might help to fine tune exactly where the design has been sidestepped.
    Oh and the rush for speed came about because it was supposed to be an achievement, not something that happens every time you play. It just happened to become that way because we decided we wanted the most XP possible per game (This was before other story lines were ready to be played). We fine tuned EVERYTHING you guys regard as the right way to do things within the map with this purpose in mind. Then we showed everyone else how to work the system and it became the norm. Then Ability started to change things to try and prevent us from abusing the system (He never really succeeded at this). He constantly created new challenges to make the game harder for the top 5% of players instead of catering to the silent majority that just weren't as good. I like that you guys are trying to correct this by making it easier for them, but you will probably run into the same problem we had with it. If you make it too easy the player base will quit too quickly. If you make it too hard the player base will not keep playing. The median was kinda found, which is what you guys play today. I personally find it not a challenge, but I do still think it is fun.
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