'Pub has become hell'

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Niktos, Feb 11, 2013.

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  1. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    That catchy title is just a citation as i dont have too much first hand experience with pub lately. Although I did notice a rise of opinions like this one regarding pub on channel in last days with new influx of players due to featuring of notd.

    It leads to a problem in my opinion, problem of games full of new guys where there is noone to take their hand and lead them around. While there are text informations about basic stuff, objectives and all that. When pub is void of someone that won or at least gone thru it there is no real hint as to how objective should be aproached. This leads to wipes, wipes that dont teach new guys a thing and can only frustrate and turn them off.
    I recal reading a sugestion someone made not long ago, about objectives in pub being highlighted longer, and minis waiting at next objective so that ppl know what is next even after spacing off for a moment. What i have in mind goes a step further.

    My idea takes into acount tutorial that is to come sooner or later, but again tutorial is for basic things, not for how to aproach a scenario.

    After this tad long entry here comes idea itself, as far as i`m aware pub 'tactic' is generally same across servers. Tactic being where do you stand not to die/when you do it.
    Pub would benefit highly (especially with noone experienced/willing to lead) from a system that would highlight sugested defensive position. Like literally make some place green/red with a big info 'Bunker up here' when there is a holdout part so new guys dont end up running into wall of zombies unaware of it aproaching.
    You probably think now, but they will die to boss anyway why even try? Some new players die to bosses even after explanation, some are self aware and fight bosses by intuition purely with success. Only to die during next holdout that they didnt realize will come.

    TL;DR;: Include easily visible tactic hints into pub.
  2. Lulz

    Lulz Well-Known Member

    S'all good these first few days on the feature will be rough but it should clear up nioely after. It would be good if people didn't straight up avoid pubs right now though, the newbies need you!
  3. Zeriathyr

    Zeriathyr Well-Known Member

    Newbies.. a lot of them just don't listen. Understandably, they want to have fun.
    But I liken the fun NOTD gives is the same as Arkham Horror - a co-op survival game bending towards horror.

    Its a pity there is no tutorial stage or newbie guide at the moment, as what will result is a new group of cheaters..
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Basically all the vets need to make an effort to pub more. We usually have a relatively low number of new players such that pubs have a reasonable number of carries with some newbs to feel the shock&awe of playing with quality players. However, with the massive influx caused by the map becoming Featured, vets are getting scared away from pubs b/c of the worry about being the only one or one of two vets in a game. This only serves to fuel the problem. Next time you're free, make a party with three of your friends and go carry a pub for the good of NOTD (remember that you aren't doing this for the win or for the xp, but to get the newbs to come back or and to look awesome, if you'd rather consider it that way).
  5. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    I've made it a personal priority for Prestige members to go in groups of 2 to play pubs and teach some of the new players how to play NOTD. I'm on NOTD daily so I do try to do that but yes best to go in groups of 2 because it's pretty hard to juggle everything by yourself. As for the groups of 2 players, 1 should generally be the tank with the other being DPS. The one that is DPS should do most of the typing and helping with the tank only mentioning a thing or two here and there.

    Our main goal is about 1 - 2 games a day at the most (realistically we are not going to pub all day). Generally speaking games do go well and for the most part as players do well receive our help and advice. Of course there are the players that choose to ignore/ not want our help and we just cut those players loose. No point in helping those that want no help.

    Anyways, I would like to say it is disappointing when I witness some players in 'channel" saying pubs have more scrubs now. Shame on you guys for that and if you ask why you are "excluded" from games with Vets then there is your reason.

    Show Spoiler

    I personally hate seeing things such as this.

  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    We've been working towards this for a while. Unfortunately, we cannot do everything at once.
  7. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    There weren't tactic for ec, ac, sec and surv. It should give some hints but not freewins. We already have pub heroes.
    Also for those that say "pub are a nightmare now" allow me to -w you. You mainly play pubs and have more pub wins than nm wins. Those people dont have a saying what difficulty is.
    Imo we all need to make an effort to pub show new guys what can be done etc. If you don't pub or don't want pub wins to be saved hell back up, u already probably do it anyway. The people that say "pub is impossible now" most likely don't play in full vet teams. Also why is it hard? You can solo ec recruit with any class there's nothing really hard about literally. Just takes a bit of kiting.
    Also you may get the case where new guys don't listen, well its pub. You always get those. Instead try to get the people that are willing to learn together, make a party with those if they want to and roll together. Why am I forced to explain the basics of the features starcraft2 gives u?
    Lastly I understand not all have patience to teach fresh new guys. I don't myself. However most of you were introduced to this game by browsing for it or by having a friend show you. *Treat others how you want to be treated* well if you stack around it means to me you were treated well and were taught in pubs etc. Now gtfo and return the favor u ungrateful people that make up excuses. Even I'm aboutto start pub just to help new people. Why complain about the mass swarm of noobs, when you can teach them make friends and epand this community. Some complain "omg no games when im in channel" well, teach people you'll have more to play with.
    What will most likely happen is only some of us go pub don't play nm and teach the noobs. The majority of those people will be vets, which is the big difference between VETS and VETS wanna be. You try to be good but can't help new guys or even carry a pub = lack of veteran skillset.
    Anyways ty for all the people that have helped the newbs so far and thank you for all of those who will.
    Also thank you to the people that have been complaining in channel about pubs. It really made writing a list, of who to avoid when wanting to play a serious game, 0 hussle.
    Gl hf happy teaching.
  8. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    Personally I think including a tutorial will increase the survival chance of new players.
  9. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    You read my damm mind, I was going to ask Ability about this very subject today lol.
  10. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    # Nature of NOTD
    If today 4 out of 10 newbies stick on with NOTD, our goal is to increase that number to 6 out of 10. NOTD is not for everyone and trying to make everyone like us will dilute what we are. NOTD is known for its signature difficulty and there needs to be a skill floor (not everyone will meet it - but its not as high as ladder).

    # Tutorial Map
    I agree with a tutorial map being made and we've talked about it (and started minor work) on it in the past. However, there's a lot of back-end work that needs to be done. To keep a tutorial in sync with the main NOTD map, we would need to use Mod files to share unit info (otherwise an updated Rifleman will not be reflected in the Tutorial map without double work from us). This isn't a major issue but its something we need to address internally first. I'll take the lead the developing the tutorial map. AP will assist as he has other priorities on the main NOTD map too. A beta-version tutorial map will be live by HOTS' launch. I'll fill in more details in a separate thread by next weekend when I restart work on it.

    # Tools to Help Newbies
    We can and should utilize the following. Listed in order of commitment needed (lowest to highest):
    - Remind newbies to read in-game tips
    - Read the NOTD Basics Guide on the NOTD website (http://www.notdstarcraft.com/notdbasics.htm)
    - Join NOTD channel and play with Vets
    - Play NOTD Tutorial (Coming Soon)
    - Sign up to NOTD Forum and read NOTD Wiki

    I need to highlight that playing an NOTD Tutorial is higher involvement than most of the existing steps above, which means not every player will play it. Playing an NOTD Tutorial map would take at least 10-15 minutes (together with minor lobby waits/loading time/DCs). I want to manage expectations that it won't solve many problems, but will be highly useful for people who want to take the initiative (they are usually going to do well and stay with us anyway).
  11. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    In regards to the tutorial, if its going to be multiplayer, i believe it shouldnt require 8 players, 4 at max.
    Otherwise increase requirements of recruit mode, to ~1000xp-1500xp and make under 500xp auto start tutorial, even if you have to load a seperate map, which i believe there is an option for in the editor.
    Theres absolutley no point in playing if everyones going to die by tart, 9/10 games.
  12. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I'm 99.999% sure that you can't suddenly drastically change the game to do a seperate map instead of the map they joined and downloaded, because you would have to make them download another map.

    The tutorial would likely be an optional thing; likely a separate map made for tutorial purposes that a person can choose to play.
  13. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Hmm, its a good point but the option to load another map is in there, if it auto loads a tutorial, maybe theres a way to "attach" the tutorial to the main map, in a way that makes it auto download and update when you join a motd lobby it may them be possible.
  14. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Until then, everyone go pub and help the newbies rather than avoiding pubs like the plague. I applaud our resident pubheroes like aceace, who go out and show their skillz to the poor newbs, showcasing the later classes, interesting tactics, and general good attitude we like to see in NOTD.
  15. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Sorry for typos, my phone needs to be slain.
  16. Archangel

    Archangel Well-Known Member

    My problem with your tutorial option is that if you do something like that, the xp gain for anyone up to tart in recruit mode is what, maybe 5 xp? That is getting the performance on all the hexes and stunning tart. We are talking 100+ games (generously) where they only get the first 15mins of the game and a very linear direction to travel. pretty boring grind, and wont even get 2 points into tier 2 anything, except maybe arms assault.

    And that is to get them into recruit mode. Still nowhere near Alpha.
  17. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Not sure what your issue with my suggestion is, all you have stated is exactly what the problem is without a tutorial.
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Step 1: Force Tutorial every time someone has under X Amount.

    Step 2: Pray that the experienced players don't ditch the game for Private Games and that pubs will be played.

    The problem with forcing a tutorial mode instead of utilizing the Arcade Tutorial Option is that you <Kill> public games. Not one experienced player will dare enter a Public Game because there simply isn't anything there that the can get out of it.

    Go reset your bank, and play the game up to Tartarus' Death until you have enough EXP to play alpha to see what the problem is.
  19. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    Agree with Arch and Ozymandias.

    In the olden days of NOTD there was no tutorial system or any of this mumbo jumbo. There were a group of dedicated veterans that went ahead into pub games and helped many of the players such as myself become what we are today.

    Now, if you want to help with this "pub problem" then do the community a favor and play some pubs with 1 - 2 fellow vets and show the new players the ways of NOTD as the old vets did for you. You don't need more than 1 veteran player to play a pub with you to be honest. Having too many vets in a single pub game can potentially increase squad rating which makes it a tough time for new players.

    Also anyone worth their salt knows that this current "pub problem" is nothing compared to pub from the old veteran's time becuase pubs in our days use to have channel NOTD filled to the brim with there being 3 NOTD channels. In addition pubs were worse back then because only a handful of veterans knew what to do and how to actually beat NOTD.

    It kinda makes me sick to my stomach thinking that today's generation feels that new players are a drag and that helping them is some sort of chore.

    I think people need a reminder of Blaqk's infamous quote,

    "Heed my words NOTD, a house divided cannot stand on even the strongest of foundations, and with SC2 being as stagnant as it already is, we *cannot* afford to be divided. Stand together, brothers and sisters, players and developers, and build a NOTD worthy of the name and worthy of playing. Or... remain divided and fall."
  20. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    This will reminds me of the time where I started playing NOTD in SEA, but luckily in those days there are still many old vets players. But now it's almost left none (except a few i could count with my own fingers).

    I gonna teach SEA the old fashion way the old vets taught me, it's rough and hard but that's usually SEA's motto.

    EDIT: could be the attitude of the new generations that's lead some vets have no other options but to retire.
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