Psi-Ops Talents

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Lord NiteShade, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Because no one else seems to notice it. Psi-Ops has always seemed to have its talents on the wrong trees, it's like a forced attempt to hybrid built. Of course, everyone just goes Inception anyways because its so gamebreaker strong.

    Lets take a look at the "Telepathy" tree
    Mind-Link
    Mind Ravage
    Mental Projection
    Foresight
    Psionic Tempest


    I see absolutely no inter-skill synergy there. Nothing ties together in a meaningful way. Its a great T2, a good T2, a useful T1, and a crap T1. The Ultimate varies by gamemode...

    Now lets see the "Mind Mastery" tree
    Blackout
    Force Push
    Sensory Confusion
    Speed of Thought
    Inception


    Gain, absolutely zero goddamn synergy anyways. Just a collection of "neato cool" skills and a freaking powerful T3. Let's see if we can fix that shall we?

    New Telepathy Tree
    Mind Ravage
    Force Push
    Sensory Confusion
    Foresight
    Psionic Tempest


    New Mind Mastery Tree
    Mind-Link
    Blackout
    Mental Projection
    Speed of Thought
    Inception


    Hey look at that. Now, Mind Ravage Force Push are together. This means you can use the Mini stuns from your own force pushes for bonus damage from Mind Ravage (If you're good). You've also got Push and Foresight on the same tree, making it more of a solid disable class. This is still noticeably the weaker psiops, because of Inception. I'll elaborate later.

    Now if we look at Mind Mastery, it's more or less all the powers that focus on the Mind, specifically the Psi-Ops. Now that Mind Link and Speed of thought are in the same tree, there's actually some freaking synergy. You can link to an ally, gain his vision, and use him as a waypoint for your teleports. Now that you can see him, you can teleport to him to protect him if needed. This gives you a way to protect allies and mitigate the disadvantaged of Mind Link (shared damage killing you both) through skillful play. Ally about to tank a slasher? Teleport to his position (with your shared vision), stun the beast, and you both flee. Hell you could just pop it with black out and blind it.

    A few points.
    1: I think Mind Ravage should gain (some) bonus damage on slowed units, with even more massive a damage boost (500%+) on Stunned units. Outside of killstealing banetrains its really pitiful even for a T1.
    2: Sensory confusion. I dont like this skill, it only works when you get it. It's never honestly saved anyone from what Ive seen. Apollo is 80% agrons beyond Nazara anyways. Now's the time to change it to something better. If you need a "defensive passive" on top of foresight, Dodge % > Cloak.
    3: Psionic Tempest. Between the tech's turret, the stinger rape put down by PsiOps and SubMM, and the freaking Chem Expert, this skill is seriously lacking. Its only advantage is its really sustainable. But in apollo burst damage > long term damage. It needs some kind of added bonus to make it more desirable and be more useful against bosses. Maybe its damage keeps growing the longer it's channeled, who knows.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    This is pretty much exactly what I was working towards with the Psi Ops. Really, the only wheels we need to reinvent are Psi Storm and Sensory Confusion, and throw a serious buff on Mind Ravage. Everything else is a just question of organization.
  3. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    A "passive that only helps when you get hit sometimes by cloaking you that isnt helpful in that campaign" is by far the weakest skill on the entire class. It's also dubiously the worst passive in the entire game. Ironically, I put it with Foresight, which aside from hurting some players framerate, is arguably the best passive T2 in the game. At least Mind Ravages tiny damage is existent, whereas I see sensory confuzzle proc maybe twice and entire game, and never at a meaningful time.
  4. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    You can't take Force Push away from Inception. If you do that you're going to completely upheave Apollo Sec Team. Not only that, but you have a small AOE damage in the same tier and tree as an AOE disable. You also have two second-tier passives, including one that just plain needs to go, in Telepathy.

    I'll come up with something later.
  5. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Yup, thats the point. Currently right tree is far too strong thanks to Inception, its good to get knocked down a peg.
  6. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    It's hardly good to knock it down a peg. Give me one good reason as to how the right tree is "OP" and why it needs to be robbed it of a function. Removing Force Push is not "nerfing" the Mind Mastery tree, it's butchering an entire role.
  7. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    At which point you've made inception entirely worthless early game, and has to be carried to its T3. Might as well toss out all the skills except inception at that point, and redo every skill in that tree.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Hardly has to be carried - in fact less so than a Delta Comm.

    Mind Link / Black Out are useful skills, more so if you aren't spending energy on Push which is now in a different tree. Prior to the moves, your T1 were also non-damage skills.

    T2 has projections and SoT which are extremely good T2 skills. Projections have a lot of team support utility along with SoT. Projections in fact are a lot better than the sensory confusion they replaced.

    And then you get your T3.

    The skill moves are fine. I agree some talents need to have their values looked at.
    I would add Foresight to that list.
    -30% as AND ms as a range 9 passive aura is simply too good for a T2. It is much more a T3.
    Maybe move that to T3 if you want to get rid of Psi Storm.

    If you want to keep it at T2, at least change it to 10/20%.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Everybody's getting mad!

    Look, what Ghost said is accurate. Psi Ops only needs to be "carried" through Tier 1, in which case she gets access to Projections, which will help her level plenty. Apollo Sec borderline guarantees Tier 2 by 10 minutes, if not 15, so it will hardly be a problem.

    Reworking Psi Storm into something that does not require a channel but it still sustained damage means that Force Push can be used to keep enemies in the AOE of said ability.

    As for Sensory Confusion, I came up with something. Why not have it add a passive chance per attack to cast a free Mind Ravage on target, or have it add a debuff that increases the amount of damage that Mind Ravage does on the target?
  10. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Not my problem. Theres always Plan B
    Put ALL the good skills on one class, and totally redesign the other.

    New Telepathy Tree
    Mind Ravage
    Blackout
    Sensory Confusion
    Mental Projection
    Psionic Tempest


    Random Skill Mayhem, the only time that mess would help is a public game where it would whore infinite exp.

    New Mind Mastery Tree
    Mind-Link
    Force Push
    Foresight
    Speed of Thought
    Inception


    See, now we have what is possible the best damn PsiOps tree ever. It's almost 100% support and Disables. It shares vision and damage, synergizes with teleport stuns (seeable allies = savable allies) and has massively OP Inception Foresight combo.

    Then the issue becomes
    1: Rebalance right tree because now its clearly OP as hell.
    2: Figure out wtf to do with left tree, whats it role should be, and fix accordingly.
    3: Replace and work almost the entire left tree from ground up.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    That's lazy and stupid. There's plenty of balance with the first proposal.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Something I did a while ago. A bit different than Nite's. But the idea behind it was similar. The big change I guess for everyone is that unlike Nite I moved Blackout off the Mind tree and not Force Push. I do agree Sensory Confusion was terrible and deserved to go.
  13. YetiSwarm
    • Donator

    YetiSwarm Member

    I like the original post, but I fear that you're going to start seeing 1 force push mind mastery POs like 1 SL nanos and that's something we need to avoid. Maybe that won't happen since POs are already rushing to incep as fast as possible though.

    Since force push and mind ravage clearly belong together, you could put them together on the mind mastery tree, but then what we're doing is buffing the clearly better tree and nerfing the bad one. Maybe the real problem is that inception is just too good, and its affects need to be nerfed to handle the change (perhaps knock the slows down to 70% for mobs, 60% for bosses, and 35% for allies).

    And of course, while we're fixing PO, as everyone has said, sensory confusion has got to get the ax. That shit's horribad.
  14. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Very much agree with this. Its currently the similar corundum with the Marksman. Simply swapping T1's just leads to CP based 1 of whatever then switching trees. The only options are to leave them as is and swap other things, or move stuff to T2 to explicitly tell everyone "Choose one or the other". And once you move stuff to T2, it is expected it gets a buff, or something gets a nerf to go to T1. Even then, you might still see people attempt hybrid builds anyhow.
  15. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I largely agree with Nite's first post. Any violent objections?
  16. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Same with me. I liked the Psi-Ops the way it was designed but only because of the old Apollo Sec team storyline's game design.
    With all the changes done to it however, I believe it's only proper that the class adapt itself as well.

    +1 to Niteshade's initial proposal
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Pretty much agree with the addition to reduce the debuff from Foresight aura slightly (10/20 instead of 15/30)
  18. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Eh. I still think given the chance that we should consider axing Sensory Confusion. Terribad talent. Total dud, nigh useless in the only storyline the Sex Ops is in due to the large amounts of detection on the field.

    Given that Blaqk is the resident Psi Ops specialist I do think he has something and should be considered with the movement of Force Push. Apollo Security Team is so dependent on both Force Push and Inception that having them on separate trees seems like it might cause a lot of unnecessary heartache.
  19. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I think foresight can stay as it is, considering how weak sensory confusion is. It's arguably the best T2 in the game coupled with arguably the worst T2 in the game. If a suitable replacement were found for sensory confusion, however, I could see foresight with a bit of a nerf.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Based on Nite's first post, Sensory confusion will get a buff/change, which is why I am adding that :)

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