Nydus Worms/Parasites on NM

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Ramses II, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Why has EC NM been turned into a fight against venom and not much else? That's really not what I'm looking for when I play NOTD at all.
  2. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Much agreed with this sentiment Ozy.
    To remedy this problem, I'd say when charge-parasites gets to you, its attack should come maybe .4 seconds later.
    Delay the parasites initial attack by .4 seconds or something and maybe also readjust their attack speed.

    Within less than 2 seconds of getting swarmed by parasites, you will most likely have a maximum stack of 20 venom.

    I shall give you an example of one very troll situation where in Apollo NM,
    We manage to kill nazara and EMP shockwave hit us.
    Just at that moment a worm popped up right next to us and killed 5 people.
    We had no energy.

    TLDR: So in this situation and all troll situations regarding parasites,
    I believe delaying the initial attack by .4 seconds or something and also decreasing the attack speed of the parasites is the solution.
    Max stack venom in ~0-2 seconds means about to die for at least 3-6 minutes if no kits or medic.
  3. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    I echo this sentiment. Currently most vets fear larva more then anything else in the game. Although you can recover from them as opposed to say, slashers or banelings, because of their design (small size, stacking venom on nearly every hit, lowest threat priority), they contribute heavily to slowing teams down and in situations where teams are on the move (Nydus mission, any major kite boss fight, Nazara/HAL sequence), it will inevitably lead to deaths. I do remember a story of team fighting Deimos way back when on NM, when Ogi could tank, and they had double larva worm pop on them, team was exterminated instantly.

    Also the addition of instant larva spawn to infestors followed up by regular spawn is brutal, serves to just hand a player 4-5 venoms almost immediately. Although this can be dealt with by stunning before delivering final blows, it barely mitigates the issues because of the speed of charging larva on creep that spawns with them.

    2 possible remedies in my mind exist. Either remove charge from larva so they rely on their stealth of sorts to get hits in, or make them spawn in sequential fashion (one at a time, one after another), so that they still can mass as a mob but if a team is careful they can deal with them as they spawn.
  4. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Another option would be to make larva especially weak to combat knives. As in, if you're on your toes and can hit your knife you're fine. Give combat knives instakill on larva.
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Yeah, it is annoying that when you knife larvae you still need 3+ hits to kill them in NM, and facing them is very difficult if a creepfield (or minor zombie) spawns within your LOS forcing your character to turn around.

    In terms of parasite larvae, I think currently enough warning is avaiable for people to use some sort of skill before shit hits the fan. However I do agree that larvae simply attack way too quickly.
    They have an attack speed of 0.35, HP of about 70 and armor of 10 on NM. Slightly lower HP on vet. That and they are pretty much unclickable with anything but AoE.

    The worst larva incident for us was fighting queen and as she shrieks, a nydus pops up and trolls the stunned team.
    Followed by us doing civs and 2 nydi within 30 seconds pop up together with civs turning to Hulks.
  6. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    - Additional delay between parasite spawns in Nydus
    - Parasites now do not charge in NM

    It should be tough enough for parasites to get near players, and if they do they should be deadly.
  7. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Questions and Suggestions.

    Thanks.
    Parasites not charging in NM is probably the single most imprtant change to give players at least some reaction time and less 1 second you are OK, next second you lost a life and got 15 venom, OW crip and what not moments.

    Though I suppose with this change, the additional spawn delay is not that necessary anymore. (I remember it was already increased twice in the past, the 2nd time very recently)



    Sidenote question:
    Is it intended that Alpha Perses contisders the location of a Recon's reaper when deciding where to camp?
    We had 5 people alive at military base and a dead recon's leaver reaper near the Colonist truck.
    Perses kept charging up for fire waves which we never saw even though Perses HP was displayed.
    We ended up finding Perses camping at around south east airlock gate and he came to MB when we sent the reaper over to us.
  8. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I understand that a minority still feels that charging Parasites were something that people adapted to and survived. It also gave a greater sense of accomplishment to NM. How do we continue keeping it skill based vs luck?
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Just have it disabled in cases where your energy cannot exist (After Nazara & Seth EMP) A minute or two after that emp, sure, let it occur, but immediately after is just not fair.

    Just, make a few minute delay in between them during bosses, there isn't a reason for 4 nydus worms to occur in under 1 minute.

    In Survival, I don't care how many you make.
  10. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Parasites can charge as long as their spawn is not immediate, and worms don't spawn during chapter 1 boss fights (tartarus, erebos, immediately after nazara, apoptosis are the biggest culprits I can think of). If there is a half second or so between the worm spawning or the infestor dying before the parasites spawn, then it will be perfectly fine.

    Also, I don't see any reason why mass parasites should come out of the queen when she dies. The entire purpose is to kill players after the final boss is already dead.
  11. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    It is luck when you have parasites coming out of the nydus at different times because you have to choose when to use your ability to kill them, but you may be too earlier or too late and almost never right at the exact time. It takes skill and teamwork to surive instant spawning parasites that charge on NM, luck does not get to past these things. Luck is involved when they don't come out at the same rate or there is some delay before they start coming out. Things like this need to stay constant.

    And parasites not charging has made them pretty much a joke in nightmare games, they need to charge again. The classes have so many ways of dealing with them people just need to use their brains and go specs that help the team and not just themselves.
  12. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Jercy, the parasites spawn interval was changed from 0.1 to 0.2 secs (it spawns 2 per interval). It's constant and not random, in case you're misunderstanding. This is to give players more reaction time.

    I can create another class of Parasites that will charge. But these will come from areas where players should anticipate (fixed events, etc). The charging parasites will not be part of relatively random events anymore.
  13. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    Oh, I wasn't refering to the spawn interval, but the initial spawn of them coming out, but I do not know if they will initially start spawning sooner in NM games than they do in Vet games anymore. As long as it is constant along all difficulties then I have no problem. Perphaps you can just reduce the chance of them occurring in non-nm games.

    But regardless of that, the nydus worms are dying before most of the parasites even come out, and the ones that do come out get killed from the splash of our weapons when we kill the nydus worm. It has kinda just made them a joke.
  14. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Was thinking on this matter, and a possible solution occurred to me. Change the venom worms to the following

    1) Have them give a 1 second warning before they pop, identitcal to mentos worms

    2) When the worm pops, have it use the hatchery spawn animation and throw the larva in a circle around the nydus. This forces the team to actually target them, as the aoe fire targeting the worm (except in High AoE cases like HMG or Stinger) will not kill them.

    3) Give the larva a .5 second stun on landing, akin to them getting their orientation, before they engage whoever is nearby. Increase this stun duration for non NM games.

    In this way, they require skill to beat (you have 1 second warning, plus them being thrown (Say 1 second before they land), and a .5 second stunned duration to give you soem time to attack them before they hit you. Also by being disperseed and having low threat priority, forces the team to think and deal with them appropriately instead of just firing their guns and having splash kill them, or just a single nade killing them.
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Nade radius is pretty big so would likely still hit all of them. But yes, slightly more spread out would be nice, though then the number of worms ought to be reduced slightly as manually targeting them is very difficult, especially if they are right in your face (you are more likely to click your marine than a worm, particularly if they are located to your north)

    In terms of special worms that can charge - the ones from Queen in NM still do charge, and that's fine. Players should know not to hug her too closely when she is low on HP.
  16. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    And the straggler Larvae from the Nydus Worm Sequence in Easy Company (Just random Larvae that are on map at this point with no obvious source), fine with them charging.

    Also in Easy Company wouldn't mind if the Brood Mothers hatched Charging Larvae in Nightmare Games. Though since they don't do that currently it's a bit of a new mechanic. Just having them poop out a Larvae or two every 15 seconds.

    Wouldn't mind if the Larvae charged in the Alpha Gas Cam bit, as long as their location was more fixed. Rather than being somewhere between Helipad, Tartar Sauce's Fight Location, and West Gate, have them with a fixed spawn on say, Dome C.
  17. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Agron larvae should be able to charge
  18. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    The random larva in Nydus sequence, come from the Nydus worms (at set intervals, 3 zombies/2 larva spawns from all that alive)

    Gas Larva all come from each dome. Each domes spawns a ton of zombies, a bunch of larva, and a few immortals.
  19. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Any larvae that spawn from things that died should.

    Infestor larvae
    Queen larvae
    Agron larvae

    +

    Along with

    Nydus worm mission larvae
    Survival mode larvae



    That's pretty much everything BUT the mini nydus larvae.
  20. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I don't think infestor larvae should charge (note that charge is +100% MS as well as AS) plainly because they spawn the very instant the infestor dies as opposed to Agron larvae which spawn a fair bit later. Besides, infestors spawn 2 batches already.

    I can agree with survival larvae charging. I disagree with nydus worm mission EC larvae and Alpha gas larvae charging. You are thinking of when the team camps somewhere and just nukes the nydi. When you don't have someone to take out nydi at range and manually have the team take them out wtih conventional weaponry, you get swarmed very quickly and having something that you can barely click charge at you is not exactly fair and discourages anyone but OpsComm, Rec, FDemo or SubMM from killing nydi.

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