NOTD Weapon Balancing Feedback - 2014

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, May 20, 2014.

  1. ozzy

    ozzy Member

    the submachine gun should have more damage
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  2. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    How work weapon enemy type bonuses?
    Example: bar 135 +35 armored +35 massive
    It hits first maximum damage value according to enemy type? So when you shoot agron u do 170 or 205 dmg?
    If 170 couldnt it be made to these bonuses to add?
    If they add couldnt it be made that weapon stat info ui shows +35 to massive and +35 to armored instead of 170 for both?
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    170. SC2's engine will take the mean of the highest and lowest bonuses applied. That's not something we can change, nor can we change how the tooltip displays damage.
  4. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Minor nitpick. SC2 will take the highest or the lowest or the combined of the highest and lowest. Otherwise, Blaqk is entirely correct, the display is hardcoded and can not be changed.
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  5. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    ^ What I meant to say.
  6. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Balance my asgard plz?

    I'm the only player I know of that can do that with asgard, aside from MAYBE 2 others.

    Warning: Replay is 1 hour, 52 minutes long. Good luck! You've been warned.

    Attached Files:

  7. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • CN/TW Liaison

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    Soaking up splash damage? And yet it still does more damage than Barrett (which is designed for heavy units) to a single unit, not to mention way more spammable compared to barrett which can only fire once every 2.3 seconds without attack speed items and mods.

    I'll push for changes so it's not just nerfed in one way, there's no such thing as "I prefer it to be nerfed this way".


    What were people's reactions when double talents and extra life per level from intelligence and endurance respectively were removed? That makes no sense at all, just because you're used to how efficient it is doesn't make it in the sweet spot in terms of its stats.

    Rate of fire alone already puts L3 ahead of barrett, and again you're looking down at the unbalance between damage per magazine of L3 and barrett, barrett massive single shot? L3 is 200 damage single large target, or same amount of damage to ALL smaller targets within 2.75 radius from point of explosion, that's right squish, there is no splash falloff which makes your argument invalid.


    Need me to list the efficiency of L3 once again?
    L3 - 200 damage, 2.75 splash, 3 ammo per shot, 2000 damage per magazine (fast)
    Stinger - 360 damage, 4 splash, 10 ammo per shot, 1180 damage per magazine (very slow)
    Barrett - 135 damage, 0 splash, 3 ammo per shot, 1350 damage per magazine (very slow)
    Laser - 26 (+ armour bonus + HE/FV bonus) damage, nearly non-existent splash, >780 damage per magazine (very fast)
    M45 - 50 damage, 0 splash, 1500 damage per magazine (slow)
    Flamethrower - 8 * 12 damage, linear splash, up to 2880 damage per magazine (moderate)

    Others including HMG are no where even near these weapons. You really think we'd consider this being the norm so people all buy L3 for leveling because it's so easy to wipe out waves?

    Also, even if you nerf L3 from 3 to 5 ammo per shot, you're still looking at 1200 damage per magazine at speed as fast as 0.5 seconds between each shot.

    What are you smoking exactly? Go come up with a better argument why L3's damage to magazine ratio should be unreasonably high for a weapon that can hit as far as rifles, fast firing and has good splash.


    That's inconsistent, but fortunately L3 does do less damage if you're hit by shrinker, even if the tooltip still says 200.


    Oh and check this out - Niktos' concern
    [​IMG]
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    L3 needs nerfing, simple as that. I am currently attempting to argue for not only an ammo consumption nerf, but also a nerf to Armored enemies in the ballpark of 50% reduced damage dealt. The L3 is simply too powerful, as Miracle's calculations clearly show.
  9. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    Well idc how you change it but take all in account.

    Your showed damage output is based on no buffs nor enemy types. There for most of the weapons in specific situations(no need for buff yet) or with buffs do more(far more) damage then L3. I see that flat 2000 damage to all situations can be unpleasant so would be nice to decide what role should L3 has. I like the role of L3 how I use it so
    if they would be massive aswell wont be problem for me(enemy must be armored and massive).

    Most weapons can be super strong in low sq rate/xp/diff but in higher and higher they become more "balanced".
    Continue like this will make some games nearly imposible to win(without buying) and there will be no need for hell mode.
    There is no maximum cap life for enemies(tho wiki says otherwise - was it changed or?) having for example 3k+ ags, aprx. 400+ hp ghouls(not saying there are tons of them) is pretty fun if ur weapons will do aprx. 50 dmg per ammo.
    In higher games there will be need to increase ammo drops, increased ammo mods buff value(hp recruit 12%,...nm 24%) or add stronger ammo mods instead, or maybe add some small sq rate/xp damage multiplier that would decrease damage in lower games and increase damage in higher games by small value to lower games were less op and higher games less too strong(If thats why the balancing was introduced).

    PS:
    Stinger do 300 or 400 damage(Seems you took base value so 300).
    PS2: With knowing that bonuses dont add up I can see that some things I was wrong(Example bar).
    PS3: I allways took it so that each weapon has its purpuse(case-situation) L3 has its bons/cons and usage at certain situations but for example in sec I prefer stinger over L3 in most cases or other weapon(Tho it find its place there).
  10. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Agree that L3 needs adjustments. We will likely make the below adjustments by this weekend:
    - Rounds per shot increased from 3 to 5
    - Armor penetration reduced from 1 to 5 (i.e. each point of armor reduces 5 damage, a 10 armor unit will take 150 damage instead of 200)
    - Friendly fire damage per shot increased from 38 to 80 (L3 base damage is 200, a 5 armor friendly Marine will take 55 damage per shot)

    Rationale:
    - L3 is too ammo efficient for its overall damage
    - L3 has relatively low downsizes for its ease of use

    Let me know if any other inputs and we can calibrate further. Even after implementation this weekend, we'll continue to fine tune based on results in live games.
  11. ComradeHX

    ComradeHX Well-Known Member

    I thought L3 was supposed to do a ton of damage because it isn't affected by attackspeed increase skills?

    Lower ammo efficiency and lower rounds fired per mag already helps a lot.

    It's not exactly the easiest weapon to use since every shot is a 'skill'shot, does not matter much when everything charges at you but hitting something moving perpendicular to you are near maximum range still isn't simply point and click last time I checked.

    Nerfing damage is not fun. Revolver grenade launcher is all make many explosions in a few seconds. And nerfing ammo efficiency compared to stinger is even less fun; what's the l3's point in a high skill game if one can get stinger instead of l3?
    It's already not affected by certain dps increasing skills.

    I rather take slower projectile speed and even longer reload(makes more sense).

    As far as I recall, currently L3 has plenty of downsides when ammo consumption is nerfed to 5:
    1. DPS classes benefit less from certain dps skills.
    2. Need to A + click to fire; takes more effort in micro(other weapons can work with simply A-move while kiting).
    3. Can't target air.
    4. slow projectile speed and actually requires player to aim to compensate.
    6. has ff.

    Good points are:
    1. it can be fired relatively fast.
    2. it does good damage per shot.
    3. it does good damage in a relatively short amount of time to fire 6 shots.


    L3 could use a slower reload(already reducing dps over time significantly); but reducing damage further makes it less fun as a purple-name weapon when it's already less ammo efficient.

    Maybe damage could be nerfed against enemy types as suggested above; -25 for massive and -25 for armoured would be fine. 5 armour reduction gives some ridiculous damage reduction on current high-armour enemies(queen, erebos...etc.).
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  12. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    So changelog says L3 now is buffable, and it indeed is.
    Despite this, it's not buffed by 'It's me again' of engy which i wanted to use as illustration why it is wrong idea. This L3 "nerf" of now using 5ammo is wastly smaller than benefit of being buffed.

    For some cool numbers:
    Old was 200dmg * 10 shots/mag =>2000 dmg per mag
    Now it's X * 6shots/mag => X * 6 dmg per mag

    Now for X i will go overboard, for now it's just theory but it will be retarded stack of buffs.
    +20% to base from weapon mods => so we start with 240 <=1440dmg per mag. still nerf
    +36% HP +30% nano str +40% targeting array +50%master of subtelty +100% penace =>256% * 240 = 614 (thats +part not total). Bringing us to 864 * 6 =5184 dmg per mag
    BUT we are not done there is still Concentration and Anticipation with +60% and 30% which is aplied based on dmg dealt bringing us to 9849 dmg per mag [It takes 3 seconds to empty it]

    To compare same stack of buffs with sting 300 base *3shots a mag
    +20% to base from mods => so we start with 360
    +36% HP +30% nano str +40% targeting array +50%master of subtelty +100% penace =>256% * 360 = 921 (thats +part not total). Bringing us to 1281 * 3 =3843 dmg per mag
    BUT we are not done there is still Concentration and Anticipation with +60% and 30% which is aplied based on dmg dealt bringing us to 7301 dmg per mag [It takes 12 seconds to empty it]





    Now going back on the ground as obviously smm is better of with sting than l3 due to quickaim. Same math adjusted for our trigger happy medic
    +20% to base from weapon mods => so we start with 240 <=1440dmg per mag. still nerf
    +24% HP +30% nano str +40% targeting array +100% penace =>194% * 240 = 465 (thats +part not total). Bringing us to 705 * 6 =4230 dmg per mag
    BUT we are not done there is still Anticipation with +30% which is aplied based on dmg dealt bringing us to 5499 dmg per mag [It takes 3 seconds to empty it]

    To compare same stack of buffs with sting 300 base *3shots a mag still
    medic
    +20% to base from mods => so we start with 360
    +24% HP +30% nano str +40% targeting array +100% penace =>194% * 360 = 698 (thats +part not total). Bringing us to 1058* 3 =3174 dmg per mag
    BUT we are not done there is still Anticipation with +30% which is aplied based on dmg dealt bringing us to 4126 dmg per mag [It takes 12 seconds to empty it]




    Post rage: I need to test which buffs actually apply to L3 now, wouldn't be surprised if anti didn't. But that will happen when i get some slave volunteer to test it with.
    Given that numbers might be slightly or vastly off, i was also rounding down to not end up with decimals.



    TL;DR; Cut L3 damage at LEAST 30-40% or go back to it not being buffable
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    In my opinion, L3 should ignore armor, but deal 50% reduced damage to Armored targets. Possibly also boost damage dealt to allies to 100 or 120.

    I don't really see the problem with this. Teammates coming together to buff one specific person is fine - that's teamwork for you.
  14. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    I see a problem in how far you can now push L3 weighting it with how idiot proof and easy to use it is not buffs per se. L3 like osok is push button get candy. (unless all the buffs apply to friendlyfire but i'm afraid it's just set number)

    Also nerf didn't nerf anything as medic without any outside help can outdo old per mag output.
    2hp+nano str+wep mods => 240+240*0.54 = 369 * 6 shots => 2214
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It's not just a set number, so buffing it up like crazy and then shooting someone will murder them pretty good.

    First of all, "so?"
    Second, in what world do you live in that the Medic gets HPs?
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I can't imagine what made you think Friendly Fire damage was a set number. All damage is buffed - that includes friendly fire damage, which appears to be 40% of the weapon's damage.

    On the other note, I do think its fine with being a buff-able weapon - sure your medic can wreck shit. But a Commando will wreck more shit. Now your medic has to make an effort to break the previous damage. Its base-line was nerfed, but it has higher potential.You're going to have to work to make it better than before.
  17. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    It's notd, change one break million and how L3 was not actually a gun but ability. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if 'code' responsible for how l3 deals dmg to enemies and allies was in 2 absolute different places and now only one of them got changed.
    That's what lead me to think it's friendlyfire could be set number. I got neither time nor willpower to crack up and understand map insides what leads to such errors.


    Rationale:
    - L3 is too ammo efficient for its overall damage

    In my opinion it's still too efficient, now even more efficient than it was in favourable conditions. Thats all, opinion.
    As for 2nd, in a world where people base their survival solely on L3, believe it or not but in this world pre buff l3 user was getting hcm before anyone else, now he will get hps along with it. I'm not a fan of this as it leads to shit hitting the fan instantly if l3 is not found and people that can't handle any deviation from plan, but that's sad reality.
  18. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    100% agree with Niktos. L3 has gone from broken to different broken. Can we do math and show our work before we make any more weapon changes? I showed you how trivial an armor reduction of 5 was in the situations L3 is used and Niktos has shown you that you accidentally buffed a weapon instead of nerfing it.
  19. DcKing

    DcKing New Member

    Before I get shot down hard, these are merely Ideas that came to me while reading the entire thread.
    I have no numbers, just merely ideas that I felt may not have been threaded upon.

    INC Wall of random ideas & texts
    Show Spoiler

    Drop the projectile speed to the movement of parrot (Projectile speed makes anything a high skill cap weapon)
    Have shooting animation have .5 second long animations (0.5 seconds cast time to shoot, not so useful against speed ghouls now)
    Have FF bumped up higher. (Team Kill incoming.)
    rate of fire to somewhat closer to a sting. (Now shots have to count)
    give a 8 second reload time (This would kill anyone who doesn't take into account reloading times.)
    Make grenades not bounce. (Range nerf!)
    Grenade Explosions are delayed (those speed ghouls, just got even scarier)

    Fun Idea,
    Grenades would deflect off walls/terrain (Altho I don't think this would be possible)

    Would effectively nerf it from WEEEE L3, to Meh L3.

    XD these are over the top nerfs, but effectively, What is the purpose of the L3 change.
    From what I've read, L3 is too cost efficient?
    Short of nerfing it into the ground, a grenade launcher is a cost efficient weapon (1 shot, it explodes and X Radius takes damage [If that doesn't sound efficient, the only thing that may satisfy you is Shiva]).
    Only rational why we don't give every marine a grenade launcher, is probably cause it'll demolish the entire area, the risk of casualities from so much sharpnel + range.
    Why not make it Harder to use, instead of hitting the efficiency of it? Reward the ones that can optimally use the L3.
    As of moment its just used as a trigger happy weapon due to cost efficiency [The rational thus far]

    TLDR.

    Hitting efficiency would make the weapon UP, & aren't Grenades supposed to be efficient, that the whole rational of a grenade "1 Grenade, Many Deaths"
    Too much tweaks makes it UP & everyone would move on to the next OP weapon.

    Suggested idea,
    Make the L3 harder to use, and slightly more situational, that will give it a high skill cap to reach its peak efficiency (Which should be high, It explodes goddamit [Yes, I enjoy Michael Bay's Movies])
  20. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Does anyone have more observations if L3 is being used more/less in games after the changes? Am also trying to ask on NOTD channel over the next few days to get player feedback.

    If we are still getting consistent feedback that L3 is still too strong, we can make the following 2 changes by this weekend:
    - Reduce armor penetration from 5 to 10 (a 10 armor unit will take 100 damage instead of 200)
    - Increase friendly fire from 80 to 120 (a 5 armor friendly Marine will take 70 damage per shot)

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