NOTD Weapon Balancing Feedback - 2014

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, May 20, 2014.

  1. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Bingo! This is the most accurate thing ever said. That's why I've been poking around with the weapons.

    Currently, NOTD's enemy roster has a million strange combinations of attributes applied to them, which is why all of our weapons have a million strange modifiers. We have three options:

    1. Reinvent the entire wheel and redo all enemy armor values and attributes
    2. Modify the values on a few weapons to shoehorn them
    3. Scrap some of the weapons altogether (Pulse Rifle, UA420) and make the remaining ones less bad

    None of them paint a pretty picture. Right now I'm doing #2 because there are more important things, but I honestly think we need to consider #1 if we're going to keep regularly updating NOTD.
  2. nex_

    nex_ Member

    +1 with the bingo quote.

    I have expressed some reflections about it, very similar in essence.
    Hope's good :)
  3. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    To bring HMG on Sting/L3/Barr lvl i got these values(If no special ability):
    Base dmg 37, +10 Armored, +10 Massive, 0 Armor reduction, 0.5 Attack speed, 1 Splash radius, 15 Attack range, 6 reload time.

    Possible special abilities:
    1. Passive ability: For not moving for 3 secs +10% dmg until not moving again. Active ability: Batch fire +50% dmg -0.5 Splash radius for 3 secs(or 10 rounds) after this 1 sec cant shoot. 4 secs cd.
      Base dmg 35, +7 Armored, +8 Massive, 0 Armor reduction, 0.5 Attack speed, 1 Splash radius,
    2. For each shot -10% dmg and +10% splash(Stacking up to 20).
    Base dmg 65, +16 Armored, +17 Massive, 0 Armor reduction, 0.5 Attack speed, 0.35 Splash radius,
    For each 0.5 sec of non shooting -1 stack.
    When "getting" 21st stack weapon get overheat aligment(HMG cant shoot 15 secs).​
  4. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    HMG in the right hands is already hilariously powerful due mostly to a splash radius of 2.
  5. Ability
    • Development Team
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    Ability NOTD Creator

    We'll go with #1 (fundamental review of armor/attributes) in the next few months. Not urgent and will give us time to iron it out. It's the right long-term solution.
  6. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    Well i wouldnt be so sure of this
    According to attached table current HMG lacks in almost every way in compare with rest epic guns.

    So reason why HMG is not very popular is such that other guns "in the right hands" can do better and HMG eats ammo what neednt be important in low sq games or non nm games but in high sq and nm games ammo conservation is important.

    Attached Files:

  7. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    That table is bad. It lacks any real data such as DPS versus actual enemies, utility such as Boom Headshot on Engineer (MASSIVE 2 RADIUS STUNLOCK) and Harvester of Sorrow (and other junk) on Assault, and is being compared to a ROCKET LAUNCHER.
  8. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    Actual enemies? I dont see reason why should i put dmg values for each enemy.
    It shows base dmg and base dmg+armored+massive bonuses(in epic guns its only ones - well hmg have bonus to mechs but there are not many mech enemies so i didnt give it there). - I could put dmg+armored column but I took it as not necessary.
    All have 0 armor reduction so this is not needed(Armor difference).
    Any dmg bonuses are applyable to all epic guns so no need to put it there too.

    Only utility that come in consider is buffs/debuffs caused by shots.
    Well i see why are you trying to hold that splash on 2 on gun with 15 range(From what i checked this is only gun with 2 splash or more 15 range or more and speed with 1 sec or less except L3).
    Harvest of Sorrow, Blood frenzy, Bring them down, Crippling fire, Boom Headshot etc. slowing/stunning effects with best utilization is ofc with higher splash and adequate weapon speed. Except for air enemies L3 is better in utilization of these abilites(In case we want slow/stun at distance). At close range sg can do the job better. So HMG comes for this job when no L3 and sg or we want slow/stun air at distance or slow/stun air and mobs under it at distance.
    Anyways this is thing of preference - do more dmg and conserve ammo(kite if needed) or do less dmg, slow/stun and spend ammo(kite if needed).

    Most ppl prefer first thing and therefore HMG is not so popular that was the point.
  9. AznPryde

    AznPryde New Member

    Wepon good as loang as it go pewpew powpow, kill zombe. HMG i likie.
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  10. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    This might be my favorite post ever.

    L3 also is not a weapon by game mechanics. It's technically a spell and wont proc many abilities like Boom Headshot.
  11. ComradeHX

    ComradeHX Well-Known Member

    HMG has high splash + high sustainability + decent damage. Singletarget dps and burst is obviously not going to be better than other purple names.
    HMG does not kill self/team in close range and does not cost 10 ammo per shot.

    Debuffs...etc. are sustained on enemies for a long time if assault and decently long for others.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Miracle
    • Development Team
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    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    New item to be brought to the discussion table: L3 Grenade Launcher

    Why? For the following points (using any non-Assault marines as example, no damage/speed enhancements)
    - 200 damage with good splash radius, and splash damage can hit air
    - 2000 damage per magazine (200 * 10), more than any other weapon in the game, only laser rifle is more than a match if certain conditions are met (HE + 20 armour on enemy), and again, splash damage
    - High theoretical DPS of 200 / 0.5 = 400 (though delays and other factors don't actually allow humans to deal that much)

    All of those facts above makes it the 'go-to' weapon for power leveling when Stinger MK3 is either overkill or risky.

    Possible Nerfs
    Firing Rate
    Originally, I considered a good way to nerf L3 is to add longer cooldown between each firing, but I watched a number of videos on people using grenade launchers and found out that many of them can actually be rapid fired, and also researched the firing rate of some of the weapons, so it could be unrealistic to say, make L3 usable only once per second.

    Like Stinger, L3 fires an explosive projectile, so it makes sense that getting blown up by a grenade will hurt a lot more than being hit by a bullet, even if it was from Barrett. If damage were to be nerfed I suggest something from 200->150.

    Ammo Usage
    Stinger uses up 10 units to fire once, with one magazine you can only fire 3 times, so it'd make sense that it's both lethal and hits a wide area. But, L3 gets to fire 10 times, the numbers above already shows you how much more efficient it is compared to other weapons. My suggestion is to increase the ammunitions used from 3 to 5.

    I'll leave it to you guys to discuss about how to go about in this matter, L3 is more tricky to use than other weapons, but statistic wise it's more overpowered than you think.
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  13. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Honestly the damn thing needs to be remade.

    Its not properly effected by various damage buffs or weapon mods. It has extremely high damage to ammo ratio, and it is deadly in any classes hands. The mine mechanic can stay, but the bounciness encourages sloppy use too much. Its too easy to haphazardly spam the l3 in the direction of a horde and have it bounce into something. It needs to target and area and detonate on impact if theres targets in its area of effect. Basically rifleman grenades as a weapon, but they turn into mines if theres no valid targets on impact.

    On top of this it deals very minimal friendly fire, which is easily absorbed by ka/ra, which are plentiful on Alpha/Sec team where L3 most comes into play. So its very low risk, low skill curve, and high reward.

    The currently L3 is just too damn effective against big static hordes. You can steal hundreds, if not a thousand kills with it in Alpha or Apollo during the major hordes. Its become arguably more important than the stinger for early game powerleveling specific classes.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Agree with suggestion to increase the ammo per shot for L3 from 3 to 5. Will also bring this discussion to NOTD Discussion over the weekend once we get more inputs here.
  15. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Posts moved to NOTD Discussion.
  16. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    L3 is not so superoverpowered as you are trying to say but whatever:p.

    What you didnt take in account is:
    L3 is pretty efective vs light or medium enemies while when massive enemies like agrons etc. come in play they soak all splash so you damage just one agron while with sting you can hit bunch of agrons and any other mobs around.
    Using L3 vs air is not so much efective either . You must have some ground units to trig it when air comes or time it to hit the air when it explodes when time up.
    Lying minefield is not so great aswell - some troll ghouls rush the minefield and your minefield is past or some trolly feary mobs that turn back on first sight of minefield and comes when time up and minefield is gone.
    Using it in close combats while wearing ka/ra is not good idea aswell. L3 cause ailments at mad rate to teammates(no idea if same with enemies).
    L3 is unaffected by most buffs tho some attack speed decreasing buff apply(so some dmg buffs may aswell).
    Reltively short range - 13 is max bounce range not the first bounce range.

    If you are going make L3 affected by all buffs/debuffs possible then alright but I would rather go with increasing attack speed to 0.75 or 1 instead of increasing ammo usage. Otherwise increase ammo drops or in nm make ammo cache consist of 4 mags instead of 3 and ammo box able to contain 20 instead of 15.
  17. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    L3 is not overpowered, per se. It's a fucking grenade launcher. It's been the same thing for the past couple of years - it's functional as it is now. Perhaps, not intended to be functional the way it is, but functional, nonetheless.

    I believe it's balanced the way it is, honestly. Here's why:

    The Barrett: 135/175/175 Anything/Armored/Massive.
    3 Ammo Consumption, 2.1 rate of fire, zero splash. This implies the weapon has no risk to use.

    The L3: 200 Anything, with, I believe, splash damage fall-off.
    3 Ammo Consumption, 0.5 rate of fire, ~2.5 splash. This implies the weapon is a grenade launcher, and if you fuck up and blow yourself or your team mates up with it, it's your fault. You know what'd be the best nerf for the L3 to stay the same as it is? Remove the friendly fire handicap. Full friendly fire to allies. That'd put the nerfbat to the L3 without changing its core design.
  18. Marcus

    Marcus Member

    Thats the same thing I'm saying.

    Well thats true and that was my point there too. To properly(op-using) L3 you need some skill and not that having L3 means insta win as could seem from what was written before my post.

    Well maybe but thats not enough/satisfying change according to first posts. And if I could choose from 3 to 5 ammo consumption and 0.5 to 0.75/1 attack speed then as I said I would go rather with attack speed decrease them increasing ammo consumption.

    In my post I tried to show that L3 has not just bons(like first posts were trying to say) but it has cons aswell and that proper use need some skill(not that anyone can use L3 to get the best of it).

    Lastly if all buffs/debuffs would be applicable to L3 I wouldnt have problem with decreasing other stuff aswell.
  19. ComradeHX

    ComradeHX Well-Known Member


    I suggested ammo consumption nerf a long time ago and people only read when someone with coloured name post it.
    That was on page 2.

    Also, as already posted by others, damage is fine.

    Also, fire rate decrease isn't good since a revolver launcher can fire fast irl. And lower dps makes it pointless as purple name weapon.

    Not to mention higher ammo consumption already indirectly nerf dps due to more reloads.

    Higher ammoconsumption helps alot because it nerfs sustained damage too, it could even use a buff to single shot damage since reload will be a lot more frequent and it's not always gold reload.

    Friendlyfire should be low as it fires smart ammo. But maybe it should be unable to do splash damage if friendly unit is in splash range, not sure if that can be coded though.
    If it's possible then it makes gl take more skill to use and it cannot easily shoot paras off teammate anymore, would be a good nerf.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  20. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    What L3 needs at the moment is a fix to how it shares xp (share radius is calculated from point of explosion, not user). It used to work properly then 3-4 months ago it randomly broke.

    I wouldn't allow l3 to be buffed by mods/abilities. Only things affecting it if at all should be debuffs on enemies (hs/vrl/he), and shrink on user as getting almost double movespeed with no penalty to dmg can get silly.
    Reason for no buffs is simple, it gets out of hands when you can stack buffs on ability/weapon that is click to profit and takes no knowledge/preparation from the user. Just like old osok+vrl+pen+array+nano str insanity that got nerfed.

    I don't have a solid opinion about 5 vs 3 ammo consumption, only that it won't change much for people that can hit golds with l3 anyway while punishing white reloads more.

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