NOTD Weapon Balancing Feedback - 2014

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, May 20, 2014.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Hi all,

    Getting your feedback before we make some adjustments to weapon balancing as NOTD is in a relatively stable state. Below are some inputs we've received:

    Weapon Balance
    • Shotgun feels overpowered, become very crucial to commandos/arms assaults. Possibly reduce splash or base damage slightly.
    • SMG just doesnt seem useful these days. Too many high armor enemies (hulks, agrons, stalkers) and not enough light targets to justify it. Unsure how to resolve without buffing it too much on lower difficulties.
    • Gauss vs HK vs Pulse. Fill similar roles. Possibly reduce HK splash, but boost damage and attack speed more. Make it more anti-armor and less anti-hordes. Pulse rifle somewhat already does this same role if you replace Gauss with SMG.
    • HMG may need a minor damage boost to fall in line with barrett/shotgun. Players currently ignore it largely because "it breaks rocks."
  2. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Regarding the UA420:

  3. ComradeHX

    ComradeHX Well-Known Member

    Why not reduce SMG splash and range(to around pistol range, maybe 1 or 2 more range); then compensate with better(1) armour reduction?
  4. nex_

    nex_ Member

    I dont know if sg base dammage is a solution but it can.
    Maybe reduce sg attack speed. Basically its used by assault/crofl because they have ias skill . Commando too but he might have more reload problem.

    For HMG its unusable properly unless u got an hcm, or you are an assault.
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  5. Sg is good as is, if you really want to destroy change it make it have less damage but stay away from splash
    For hmg I think it also needs a small decrease in reload
  6. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I think the key is to make the flamethrower and the sg fill different roles. The flamethrower should be high dps, good vs armored targets, good vs bosses, good vs individual targets, maybe have a DoT. The sg should be crowd control with low dps, great splash, bonus vs light, high armor reduction (you're essentially shooting buckshot, as opposed to slugs). I'd like to push NOTD1 sg out of the hands of specifically the commando, except perhaps to build up adrenaline.

    As far as the HMG, if you were to buff the damage at all I would also give it either a weight increase or, preferably, a recoil effect. HMG should be the third highest dps in the game of ranged weapons, behind the barrett and the laser rifle, with the added benefit of massive splash and better ammo efficiency.

    The SMG isn't present on recruit. The biggest issue with it at the moment is that people A. don't have the inventory space to save it for the points where it's useful, B. don't pick classes that use armor reduction anymore, preferring to just use guns that ignore armor, and C. are bad at target-firing.

    I like the idea for the pulse, hk, and gauss. I think the splash on the pulse and hk should be greatly reduced, and essentially turned into single-target guns. The pulse for psionic and light bosses, as well as picking out beastlings, banelings, huggers, and other specials from hordes, while the hk is used for armored and heavy bosses, as well as picking out the stalker family and the agrons from hordes.
  7. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    In a typical high sq ec nm game for example, the guns you see people using are m45s, flamers. The ass and mando will have a sg or pistol also, mm might have a bar. If you notice, none of those guns are fully automatic. One thing you never see is the smg, m5, hk, hmg being used for very long. The absolute main reason for this is ammo consumption. The hmg, smg, and m5 are all very good guns, but if you have a couple classes using these guns for the game, then you will run out of ammo. To address the separate guns:

    1. The sg is the best gun in the game (along with flamer) in the hands of the right person. But, there are SOOO many players who don't use this gun like they should. An inexperienced ass arms will almost always use an hmg over it. So many combat rifleman will use a long distance gun also because they don't want to lose their ss, and the sg in an inexperienced mando's hands is just asking for epic reload fail. Besides, those same inexperienced mando's will most likely be using something like a horrible hk420 and m45 combo. Don't ask why, but you see it a lot. IMO, nerfing it will only cause less inexperienced players to use it even less, and stick with their longer range and "safer" weapons.

    2. The smg is a beast of a gun. It cuts through zombie mobs, bane trains and mutas like nothing else and it is perfect for maxing adren on mando. Like you said though, I think if you buff it at all it will make it overpowered in lower difficulty games. The only thing that holds the smg back is ammo consumption. It is not exactly ammo efficient to use this gun very often. Even if you use it during muta waves only, it still puts a huge dent in your ammo inventory. IMO, the best way to buff this gun and to make it more widely used is to increase ammo drops. If that is a good idea or not, that's for another discussion but it's the only way you will make the smg more usable with it's firing rate.

    3a. The gpr does what it does and should be dropped fairly early (after tart on ec, whenever you can on ac, and never pick it up in sec). It's good against mobs but again, ammo consumption and the fact that it's not particularly good at anything other than shooting zombie mobs makes it what it is... a gun you should drop after the zombie mobs stop. *rhyme not intended*

    3b. The m5 is a GREAT gun, and the most underrated gun in the game. It has next to no weaknesses, is good against mutas, infested rines (the best), and does good dps to just about every boss in the game. Like the smg though, the m5 is held back because of ammo constraints and it's higher firing rate. IMO, the best way to increase how often this gun is used? Increase ammo drops.

    3c. The HK420, is the absolute worst gun in the game. There are only very select situations where using this gun should even be tolerated, and all of those situations tend to be very early in the game before other guns are found. It isn't particularly good at anything, it wastes ammo, and it has ZERO roles. This gun needs a pretty serious buff (and a sound clip adjustment) for most players to even consider using it. The worst thing about this gun is the fact that so many newer players are stone set on how "good" it is. They see the base damage and think that's all that matter. This is the only gun in the game that you could actually eliminate and not have it's presence missed. I would think that means that it has a terrible problem. I think making it somewhere between the gpr and hmg would be a good idea. Make it an actual upgrade over the gpr. I think if you reduce splash and increase atk speed, you are just making it a less effective m5 pretty much.

    4. The hmg is a pretty amazing gun that I don't think should be adjusted. Though it is a completely different gun according to sq and player count. Use this gun in a high sq game and it is way different than using in a lower sq game. An ass arms with the hmg in a 2k sq game will cut through absolutely everything and be so over-leveled it's not even funny. But that same assault is much better off with a sg, flame and m45 in a higher sq game. The whole reasoning behind people not using it because "it breaks rocks" just makes absolutely no sense to me and is a prime example of humpz' "monkey see, monkey do" thread. The only rocks you worry about breaking in this game are the fort rocks and the rocks at the bottom of armory (in ec). If people really can't figure out that all you have to do is move right to the end of the bottom arm on fort holdout and it won't break rocks, then all hope is lost.

    To sum up... the m5, smg, and hmg all are very good guns with defined roles. The main reason they aren't used more is because of their impact on ammo though. You can't continue to knock ammo counts down and wonder why fully auto guns are used less. The hk is trash and needs a big buff, and 98% of the notd population knows it. And the sg is the best gun in the game in the hands of a skilled player, but using such a close ranged weapon is something that scares off a lot of people from using it when they should, and nerfing it won't help that fact.
  8. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    In my opinion and the problem i got with hmg is: There is always something that does job better
    When it comes to anihilating masses of enemies -> shotgun is more ammo efficient, got shorter reload, bigger burst of dmg + micro stuns that make up for short range.
    If i absolutely need range similiar to hmg, L3 is better albeit limited to ground units.

    When it comes to bosses, ivax is only thing i can come up with where hmg shines, even then laser laughs in it's face with again shorter reload, more dps due to attk speed.

    SMG is allrite, it can't rival shotgun against literal wall of zombies but is good. What limits smg is ammo, mando with smg can get nuke for tart IF he buys himself 2full boxes which he probably will deplete along with ammo picked up as he goes. Properly supported smg turns into a demon what we sometimes used in eu for surv, mando+assa with smg's vs GOTB with -40armor is a glorious sight.

    As for shotgun feeling overpowered Misconception about flamer damage... is the reason, tooltip says one thing and then sudenly crit of shotgun makes stalker evaporate or leaves it on red hp.
  9. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Although rather ass-backwards, I feel the "highest" game has already been adapted to the power of the weapons. More specifically, the spawn difficulties of EC NM/Alpha NM have already been tweaked to accommodate the power of the shotgun in the hands of the arms assault/commando in their respective story lines. Nerfing the shotgun without buffing something else might significantly throw off the equilibrium of the highest level game.
  10. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Doing this makes that gun useless. Literally. If the commando don't use it, it ain't good for shit. That's all there is to that. If [1.55 / (1.06 ^ 30)] with 35 damage multiplied by 2.5 can't make the shotgun good, no arms assault is gonna use it, no SMM is gonna use it, no rifleman is gonna use it, because the best dps in the game can't make it good. That's why you don't see mandos using the HK at all - it's just fucking useless.

    Here's one way to buff the fuck out of the smg without increasing ammo drops: a 25% chance to NOT use a bullet in the magazine per shot fired. Percentage chance is purely an idea-based number, not an actual suggestion. I take this idea from none other than Mass Effect 3.
  11. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I didn't say make the shotgun bad, i just said make it so it isn't the commando's best dps weapon for pretty much everything. From how it's currently implemented it's pretty damn clear we're using something more similar to buckshot than a slug, so I think it makes sense to drop some of the damage and armor penetration and add a bit more bonus damage vs light. The commando almost always gets first dibs on the highest dps weapon for the situation, with some exceptions. I'm just saying make it so that the shotgun is the highest dps weapon a bit less often.
  12. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    There's little way to do that without breaking the current game badly in one of two foreseeable ways:
    One: nerf the opcommando, which nobody wants.
    Two: Nerf the shotgun, which makes it near-useless because of one class making it glaringly overpowered in the hands of all of about probably 5% of the player base.
  13. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    I laugh every time I see a commando use shotgun on Erebos. I laugh hard.
  14. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I do too. The stuns are the only reason I use SG at all on erebos. There's literally 6 different weapons you're guaranteed to have that are better.
  15. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Or three, reduce the base damage of the shotgun, increase the bonus vs light, and reduce the armor penetration, making it a more useful crowd control weapon in the hands of the crofl and arms assault, making it less useful versus tart, possibly ely (haven't really thought about eggs), ivax, and seth, while also making it more niche for the arms assault, with the shotgun being more useful for light targets while the hmg is changed to be more useful for heavy targets.

    And as far as the 5% of the player base goes, who do you think makes the complaints and the game is balanced around? The 5% who are actually good players to whom the shotgun is glaringly overpowered. It doesn't much matter whether the game is balanced for the other 95% because their issues mostly come from lack of information or just general stupidity rather than a genuine skill difference.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    We could always port in the NOTD 2 Shotgun, which functions like an actual shotgun would.
  17. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I'd be amenable to that after NotD 2 has kicked off and I've gotten used to how it works.
  18. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    When exactly is the sg far superior to the flamer in the hands of a mando? Against the ghoul start of ec nm? Muta waves, tart/elly, dem, and... I can't think of anything else. Even on tart and dem though it's not like it's crazy overpowered. Ya it does the most dps, but that isn't without a huge risk to eating a beastling or two, or having a twelvesome (made that word up, deal with it) with 11 slithers on dem if you get stunned. The pistol or a much safer and wiser weapon to use for the average person on tart and dem both. Meanwhile the flamer is better against stalkers and extremely better against hulks (which happens to be the most common zombie in ec). The flamer is better on far more bosses than the sg. And not just better... WAY better.

    Trying to nerf the sg because it feels "overpowered" while at the same time ignoring what is by far the most overpowered gun in the game, the flamer, makes absolutely no sense.

    We did a pub the other day with 2 ops mandos and we both used flamers on queen. She died in five seconds. Literally... five.... seconds. She was dead before we even got stunned by the first shriek. Please tell me how anyone can think the sg is more overpowered than that? Am I on board with nerfing the flamer? No, I don't think any gun needs to be nerfed. And also, because I think there's only a few players who use the flamer correctly and don't get themselves killed in the process. It's a gun that requires the most skill to use properly and that's the way it should be imo. But, if you want to bring up guns that people think are "overpowered" in an attempt to balance them, at least have a conversation about the gun that is actually overpowered.
  19. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    "HK Is op pls nerf" - Ability 2014

    Back on topic - I agree with about 95% of Chuck's post. The point I don't agree on I brought up with him in a PM because people don't need ammunition to nerf shit. We're not Blizzard, distributor of nerfbats everywhere.
  20. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web


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