Discussion in 'Archive' started by Ramses II, Feb 12, 2013.
Its like people read the TOS, and can understand that people do care even if it is "just a game".
Indeed, we should absolutely ignore the fact that people have been asking for a function to test out classes or characters without having to be in a real game first for almost a year and a half.
Being taught how to play with one class/character and then being shown that there are more than 28 alternate options is incredibly misleading to the players and begs the question of "why". I'm astonished that you think that the classes are not important when they dictate how you play for the next hour or more. Each class is radically different from one another with perhaps two or three cases where there is a noticeable similarity in movesets.
I see absolutely no harm in allowing the players to access the actual classes for the tutorial, and indeed, it could very easily be touted as a feature. I'm also really not in the mood to handle people asking me for the tutorial class to be included into NOTD as an actual class if we do something nonstandard.
Then why cheat? Also TOS are there for a reason. Mainly to make the business as much bulletproof and making the consumer guilty. They don't read it? Fine. When they get banned etc then they shouldn't come cry for reasons. Remind people not to cheat has nothing to do with the game tutorial etc.
I have no idea what your talking about here.
You have to define what you realy want to be added, do you want a open area in which you can select a class and do what you want or are we talking about a real tutorial with step by step explanation of the skills how to use etc?
Because what i was saying is that classes are not important for the tutorial itself. The tutorial should show the absolute basics, not how to play each class and what they can. If you want the open ground that can indeed be added as a feature but as such it should not be part of the tutorial and only implemented if a dev finds the time to do so.
I though that he meant the there wont be a class. You get a marine with the abillitys everyone has sprint etc and not a new fleshed out class just for the tutorial.
I'm asking for a simple sentence about it to be added somewhere. I'm not asking for the entire tutorial to based around warning people of bank modifying. That'd be absolutely stupid.
As for classes, I think basic stuff on the first 3 classes should be included at the very least. Having nothing about notd classes at all is a bad idea because they won't know about their chosen class (Assault going Protection tree and taking dps weapons because they don't know that they're not a dps class and the weapon would be better used on another class).
At first I thought a showcase of the classes is a good idea but now I think it would just be better to have basic info on the first 3 classes.
I would say the tutorial should feature Rifleman, to give a somewhat real connection to the main game nad a working example of skill trees/abilites/etc. But as a training ground for random classes? In many way survival already fulfills that, you can pick anything and as far as I am aware, there is basically no real recommended class setup for survival anyhow, people go whatever they feel like.
The emphasis should be on game play MECHANICS, not gameplay strategies, or even tactics really (maybe some REALLY basic ones). This is so you can focus on killing stuff in EC recruit in the first 10 min instead of wondering "How do I use ammo? How do I use X item? How do I equip $insert item here". This is to avoid the newbies running out of ammo with ammo in inventory, bleeding to death with medkits or dying while reloading.
I'm talking about a bait and switch. Let's say that the Tutorial features Class A. Class A is rather basic, and features several different skills; one for a DPS increase, a disable, a survival increase (such as a heal or a shield), and an area of effect damage spell. Players get used to Class A in the tutorial and then play the real game where Class A is not available, which can lead to some frustration.
The same problem persisted with Dawn of War II: Retribution, where the tutorial featured Capitan Gabriel Angelos and his Librarian associate, Jonah Orion. The issue is that both featured several abilities that are not found in the actual campaign, and while it was not a deal breaker (it was just the tutorial, after all) the players expressed discontent because they were taught how to handle certain situations with certain abilities and then granted access to six different campaigns, all of which (sans one) featuring four different heroes with up to six different skills each and a wide variety of equipment options and strategies.
And I think that's a bad plan. I think we should teach the players to handle the game with the tools that the game actually gives them to build familiarity. I ask "why" in response to featuring Class A instead of the actual class roster.
I'm not asking for a step-by-step instructions on how to play each class. What I think needs to happen is that the player needs to be provided with a variety of situations (mobs, tough enemies, ranged enemies, ect) and just allow them to experiment with the different classes and figure out how different abilities can solve problems. The tips will only instruct the player on the basics and maybe allude to higher difficulties while the player decides on how to solve the different objectives with the class they chose.
It could go a variety of ways. "Class A" is something that is entirely reasonable to expect from my viewpoint, so I wanted to voice my opposition to such a thing before it even happened.
That's great and all but I want players to be able to experience the classes in the tutorial so they can at least practice a little without having to fear losing rating or karma or whatever. League of Legends has a community that's strikingly similar to NOTD's in the sense that they are entirely unforgiving of players that don't know what they're doing. The first time that I played Rammus I did horribly, and I got verbally shat on by the players in the game. The first time that I played Commando, I accidentally Nuked two people, and people lost their goddamn minds over the "nub mando" which is one of the major reasons why I haven't often played Commando since.
NOTD features characters that can kill teammates, on top of being a game that puts a massive emphasis on teamwork. I really think that NOTD's Tutorial should feature the classes so players can get familiar with the classes before they proceed into a real game, because like it our not, our community can be incredibly hostile and I don't want inexperience to turn off a potential new player because of a bad reaction.
What kith is trying to say is that he would like the basics tutorial + tutorials for advanced classes. E.g something that shows how big nuke radius is etc.
I'm sure this is possible:
When the tutorial part is loaded players have options to selected basics/advanced/class experimentation etc.
However I'd say prioritize the basics tutorial and leave the advanced stuff etc for later. At the moment thought we were focusing on fresh players. Not players that have played and won the mode before.
You choose a class.
Tutorial is about mechanics as proposed in this thread.
Add that classes available are all classes available to your current bank so if you're newly 10k, there is still reason to try the tutorial.
Add a "bonus/free play" region/firing range
a free range section which you may leave anytime to continue the mechanics tutorial or literally quit/f10 quit.
You are leveled to max on both trees so you can test things out.
Maybe have a section where you have un-killable/constantly respawning dummy(ies) for people to practice direct target talents at.
Kinda like this
Good points by Kith. Will give some inputs on the weekend.
One thing worth pointing out is that if it is chosen to let players use any in game class in the tutorial it should be pointed out in a strong and obvious fashion what the requirements to unlock them in the normal game is so that we dont wind up with the opposite issue of Kith's "class A" worry, with the new players being put off by being unable to play classes that they assumed they were going to be able to play from the start.
Was just in a pub just now..
-Need to direct attention to the use of pings
-Need to to teach them about the mini map and how they can move by right clicking on a spot in the mini map
-Following pings of the leader
Spent a few hours to start work on this. I'll upload my work-in-progress files in SEA/NA servers only.
After the inputs, there will be some revisions in the tutorial. It will come with 2 modes:
- Boot Camp (everyone starts at this)
- Training Field (after you graduate from Boot Camp)
Everyone who first plays the tutorial starts in this mode (mandatory). You start as a Rifleman (no class selection) and it will be a through-by-through mechanics guide on NOTD. You can't die in Boot Camp and all hits will be non-lethal (you can't go below 1 HP). Once you complete Boot Camp, Training Field will be unlocked and starts as default.
It's an open area to do stuff. All classes can be unlocked based on your XP. In training field, you can go back to Boot Camp anytime if you wish.
How to Test
The tutorial isn't linked to the main NOTD map (and there's a problem linking it - trying to get AP to help). In SEA/NA server, search for 'NOTD Boot Camp'. If you're on EU, you can use Global Play to login either server to test. It is single player so play on your own. Click the Tutorial button when you select the map and it'll start without a lobby. Right now, I just made 5 minutes worth of Boot Camp (movement/objectives -> enemies/medkits -> weapon -> evasive maneuvers). I wrote some rough notes on the overall outline (attached image) but it is changing so just take it as guidance for now.
There will be an additional Bank file value to track NOTD Tutorial completion/progress. These details will be added to main map in next patch. So play with caution. Report any bugs if you want, but most of it is just mainly not complete (not bugs). For the 4th tower, no flare vision is intended (players graduating to moving to objectives without visual aid).
PLEASE BACKUP YOUR BANK BEFORE TESTING THE TUTORIAL
Just tested it, not sure if there is anything after fire mission dodge exercise.
The fire missing shells seems a bit excessive?
Not sure if its 1 player only, because 2nd player couldn't see anything.
Is it intended that -w and other commands remain usable in the tutorial?
Those will probably be removed in the course of the development of the tutorial.
Evasive Maneuver fire mission shells seems to much to be evasive, I would suggest using others like spores, satchel, orbital lasers etc.
It's also to let them know which to avoid when they started to play other story.
Just played the tutorial, everything seems fine in terms of bugs.
Agree. The fire mission shells have been tuned down from 25 to 15 per salvo. There is also a slight increase in intervals.
Anyway, nothing kills players so it's fine.
Published an updated WIP version on all 3 servers. After the checkpoints in current zone, tutorial will bring Marine to tactical arena (attached image) for enemy fights / hex missions / item recon / boss fight. You can test the tutorial by search for 'NOTD Boot Camp'. It is single player only but up to 3 observers can stay and chat with Player 1.
Let me know if any feedback. Hoping to get a basic version done before HOTS release in mid-March.
Separate names with a comma.