Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ramses II, Feb 5, 2012.
Weapon mod not good enough?
An iten that reduces skills cd, leave it to ap or whoever to determine how much it reduces by, its cost and rarity.
Motion Sensor is extremely powerful if you have an Opsmando or a Forward Observer. More range means more things killed earlier.
Crowbar will not be changed.
An item that reduces cooldowns or energy costs will not happen. It would be WAY too strong.
Only strong on a mando & demo.
However it is strong because most vets know how to manage energy so you "panic buttons" are ready faster.
Id love if xs4 were to make u immune from sc.
Dogg, it's strong on EVERYONE. More OSOKs, more Inceptions, more Blood Frenzy, more Nanoshields, more Mad Sparks, more everything.
That's overpowered as hell. No.
Osok useless, inception waste of time bloodfrenzy will run u dry on energy nanoshields? what is medic to being with . Sparks.. ok I give you that one. But yh its imba if used by good players
Osok is useless? Did I miss a memo? Last I heard it was overpowered. Either way, expperienced players could use it to great effect and the game would become more and more farmable. It's not gonna happen.
I'd just love more surg strike & adrenaline and nukes. Maybe more stuns, lay a few dots faster, get my traps out there quicker, rain some more air strikes, perhaps shit out another desolation or Armageddon. Maybe the zoologist will put it to good use on his tower for acquiring more specimens. Perhaps supply stations would be fun, but I'd imagine that technician would love to be able to get more milage out of MotM when making little friends.
Lower CD's are op. Overall.
Again, depends on user. Also I think domo was only talking about a 1-13% max. Its nothing that 90% of players would realize of.
Sure, 50% cd reduce can be imba. I highly doubt that's what the suggestion was aiming for.
But it this way if you have a mod such as hp, you do 12% more dps without penality and can stack up to 3 times. If you were to have item that reduces cd by 4% that can't stack is much less effective than an hp round. You are using an ability slightly faster however you are also using energy faster. The only classes that could actually only profit from this without any loss would be recon, mando and technician. I actually would find that less imba than an hp or arc. Just saying, its not as imba as you people are trying to make it sound.
You ever play League of Legends? Cooldown Reduction, no matter how small, is very powerful. Abilities are more powerful than weapons in NOTD by leaps and bounds. Energy restraints are not actually a thing considering multiple characters can grant energy to others, two of which (sscon and fa med) are present in every storyline and almost every game. You are vastly underestimating how powerful CDR is, even in small amounts.
I'm not even going to go into the huge pain in the ass that it would be to code. It's just a disgusting amount of balance work in and of itself.
Would you be surprised if I said I don't? lol is a poor attempt of a dota copy with 0 effort towards attempting any sort of game balance. It is only a trend. I tried lol few years ago, before it was a trend. Just like facebook in 05 and twitter in 06. When something gets very trendy and its community grows by 1000%, mainly with kids, it tends to be rubbish. You can't per say compare the notd with league. Also except for those 2 classes technically speaking such item would be viable.
I still don't agree.
Yes lower cooldown can be imba. However not having lower cooldown but buffing the ability itself with other much more common stuff is mathematically more imba.
Not saying that it should be implement. Just the reasoning of why not wasn't a solid argument.
Justifying it as "too imba" is correct.
I'd find "its not needed" or "we dont have time to implement new things" more appropriate <3
But yeah whatever
Lol was just a suggestion, nothing serious guys, it just pop in my head one ac game. Appreciate the thought and discussion going into it though.
It depents on the skill if +dmg or cd reduction would be preferable. But in general a cd reduction, especially on disables is extremly potent and can break games even in low numbers.
But the problem with adding damage is the simple fact that not all skills benefit from damage boosts, while coll down reduction benefits all skills.
What good does an HP ammo do for Supply station compared to a lower cool down?
If CD redux was to be implemented, it would work by altering a units time scale, by speeding up the unit, overall for simplest implementation. The alternative would be an item that upgraded everything temporarily while equipped, which would be a bigger pain in the ass.
Air strike, and gunship are the only two combat skills I can think of that aren't affected by ammo mods, and as such benefit more from CD redux more than your HP ammo.
If CD redux was implemented, it would have to be worth getting without being overpowered. Otherwise why would it be put in at all? The old AP and HP used to only have 2% difference in damage boost, with no added effects. They were the same thing, but in every given case, HP > AP. So AP obtained a benefit that reduced armor on enemies, allowing it to be able to compete with HP in some cases, at the cost of some of the % damage boost.
TL;DR: not everything benefits from added damage, but everything will benefit from a lower cool down. Cool down reduction would have to be handled such that it is worth getting, but not OP.
You could easily graph the effects of a simple 4% cooldown against 3 HP ammo equipped for say MM (since I have a handy OSOK damage calculator anyway). Over 30 seconds of OSOK-ing against a 100k HP target with all other buffs removed, having the cooldown reduction deals 52000 damage while having 3 HP ammo deals 55000 damage. The difference in damage is roughly 1 extra OSOK. So yeah, a 4% cooldown reduction item just very nearly came to match the effects of 3 12% damage boost items. OP? Yeah, very much so.
I like that I have people that justify my points for me. Thank you Yuey and Arturia.
Also, Scorp, don't rip on games like that. It makes you look like a tool.
That said, no more discussion about CDR. It's not gonna happen because it's way powerful, even with such small amounts. New suggestions, please.
Lol? Your calculation are wrong. You are suggesting that you can have more than 10-12 osoks in 30seconds. You can't. Energy resticts this.
Sure 1 extra osok.... Except you both out of energy before then. So your dps might come a bit faster. But its very poorly scaled. You are calculating the following
A damage over time with less cd
B damage over time with more dmg
You have forgotten in your calculations that your osoking is limited to 10-12 with stats. So how exactly are you still osoking after 0 mana?and the reason you didn't put other buffs is because you how much higher the just 3hps dps would be. Do maths correctly please. You'd see that the 4% reduction... Is only op on support classes such as recon med chem. Most dps classes actually loose from it. Only dps that can abuse it is mando due to cut.
Let's do osok in more simple way for all to understand:
Osok has 2second cooldown. You can do maxium 10-12 osoks.
2*12=24.... Ill give u not clicking fast enough so can take 30ish seconds with human delay.
Tell me how u managed to get 52k and 55k..
Even better. Let's change osok for this example.
With a 4% you end up shooting at 23seconds instead of 24.
With 36% dmg and 24 seconds
Also u told me u remove all other buffs... U didn't remove hps % buff. But there's still a lot wrong with the calculations.
4% is only 0.08seconds. So if you were to do 105 osoks the other mm would do 100. Let's say you no energy limit.
You need to do 800 osoks before you actually pass in damage 3hps.
We could do this with current dmg and buffs... It will still be proven impossible to abuse this on a mm because..... You require more energy.
If you gave me a tech/recon/FAmed/GSchem/opsmando then I'd be force to agree. Simply because they allow team to get more energy and themselves with less cd. And ops would get more adre+surg+nuke+cut with free energy usage.
Also art I did say it would be imba on a recon... If u were to not have usable for support classes.... The item wouldn't be imba at all. Actually I'd be pretty uselss.
But sure, we can stop discussing this since 5 out of 14 classes could make imba abuse of it for penalty.
In the current incarnation of the game i would not change anything to get rid of some cooldowns. One thing i like about this game is while i consider myself one of the best players on this (no i don't care for modesty) it can still challenge me. Anything that lowers cooldowns effectively makes the gap between the best players and the rest of the players even more, as more skills = more pwning. Thus if i could spam all day long (and yes i could with the annoying abundance of energy) and I would become litterally unchallenged thus would of left long ago. It doesnt matter what the game is using skills > not using skills.
That being said I dont hate that idea in all games but as a rule of thumb its a skill thats mostly used only in games involving massive long cooldowns (ex. shouts on Skyrim). In any quick skill using game anything lowering cooldowns is absurdly OP thus not used. NOTD is one of those games.
-__- guys like Kith said lets just stop about the cdr, I regret suggesting it now..
Don't worry about it ImaDomo, this is just how things go in NOTD when discussing game changes etc. It's part of the reason the B.O. section exists (to avoid rampant/explosions of these kinds of discourse among the whole population).
That said, while the civility has somewhat left the discussion area, I don't really think anyone has the right to determine discussion about any factor in NOTD is over/never to be touched on again.
One of the reasons we got this far is player input, and some of the stuff that we have now were initially met with heavy disapproval. I think the topic should still continue, at least while a party still wants the CDR thing implemented.
Civility however must be reinstated.
Personal stance, -1 to the CDR modifying item suggestion. I largely agree with the points Lulz made.
As Voltaire said however,
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
But again, keep it civil.
Separate names with a comma.