NOTD Players Today - Monkey See, Monkey Do.

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by MissHumpz, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Lolurisk

    Lolurisk Member

    because not a lot of players seem to want to mess around remaking games all night to try and find a new strategy.
    and to try new strategies you require a team willing to do this and with enough experience (or adaptability) to react when this attempt goes to hell

    then you also get the team comp changes due to class issues (ie surv con causing fps drop for many players, certain broken skills)

    personally I would love to try making a new method involving splitting the team into two 4 man groups (or 3 and 5) for the purpose of doing objectives but it isn't that feasible because half the time a full team would risk dying doing them in nm (comms or civs(ec))
  2. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    I think we have totally different meanings of efficiency. I didn't think there was a way to improve yet be less efficient??? Where as being more efficient means you are improving. Like you said in your first line, notd is repetitive. Being efficient should be your top goal in anything that is repetitive.
  3. Deadalus
    • Donator

    Deadalus New Member

    That story reminds me of the game LEMMINGS! Follow the leader sometimes even blindly into a chasm just because the other 20 in front did the exact same thing. However if I was hungry and free food was on top of a ladder I'd get it anyway, share with my friends and enjoy it with a cold shower. :D
  4. Lolurisk

    Lolurisk Member

    efficient requires that you are trying to optimize for a particular result, current play-styles prefer winning over risking do bonus objectives for extra xp (comms, chem leaks, civs) due to the increased chance for failure.

    so you could play a game and do all objectives while attempting to get speed in nm, which would give the most xp and creds however has a higher chance of failure which means higher potential to waste time.

    or you could do safer holdouts, skip risky objectives and gain an increased chance of victory but lower overall rewards for this victory
  5. Nymous

    Nymous Member

    Interesting story, but too simple I think.

    Instead, a branching tree full of boxes. Some have apples, some have bananas, some have wonderful things like ice cream. Some have nothing. Some boxes make you fall, others make water spray and everyone falls. Eventually they only go a couple ways, and beat people for taking the wrong ones, or people fall and don't take any but what the others take. Sometimes one take a new path and find ice cream, but doesn't shares.

    World more like that, I think.
  6. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    I've been there to witness probably the only major change in the way NA does a route and that would be for EC, AC and Surv NM.
    Archangel (who is one of the oldest members to have first created some routes with Unit) brought this knowledge back from the vets of the EU Server.
    This style of using buffing the Demotank with medic instead of an Asstank, alongside with agrons tanking queen is where that came from.
    Picked up how to run AC efficiently from EU, although our present day players kind of messed it up a bit to be less efficient.
    Surv NM was also picked up from EU and modified by Archangel once again. Indicative by how we kite from spot to spot after holding out at a location until after Eli dies.

    So this is true that we players change our tactics according to changes in game mechanics,
    but sadly we still fall into the Monkey see Monkey do situation that Humpz has said.
    Because even though these routes are new and more efficient in a way, they were still made by some of the oldest ppl in the game who first created routes to begin with.
    Old ppl from NA, EU, and SEA.
    And I can still tell because when I pop into a game, its the same tactics from about 2 years ago.
    • A+ A+ x 1
  7. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    Cruel reality is 'speed with skipping'>'doing all+fail speed' , given this - it's most efficient to skip optional things.
    A little breakdown for ec:
    airlock civs -> 2-3 xp for 3 or 5 minutes depending which truck gets rolled
    comms -> 3,5 min for 5xp or 2xp if you stop downloading ever
    chemleaks -> 5min for 5xp
    apollo civs -> 13 xp if you get all 60 for no extra time
    truck -> 5xp for anything between 0 and 5min of delaying queen death +it requires 20 from airlock
    cams -> 1xp for no extra time

    summary: 32xp for 11,5-16min depending on how lucky you get. speed is 40xp
    It is possible to get both but unlikely, most efficient way is to get speed+cams+apollo civs. Currently ecnm in eu looks roughly like that with addition of airlock civs, what sometimes fails them speed.

    As for the topic itself. Hell yeah people mindlessly do same shit but they never ask. I don't see a problem in explaining someone why we do something the way we do, there is like total of 3 people that asked me WHY over the last year and i played with dozens of new-ish guys.
    Other side of it is, i used to explain things... i stopped as people don't read anyway so it was waste of time.
  8. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    It sometimes resembles like the realism of current society. People wanting higher benefit (max reward), but also want to have it in the slackiest way. All they have to do is mimic the seniors and don't get fired. (follow us and don't screw up)
  9. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    That is definitely a change for the better. I think the only major change within the last year (not due to changing of mechanics) is fs engi being obsolete in ec now. I'd even say in ac too. Sorry Lulz :p

    She is right when it comes to people just following what others do without asking why. Rifleman picking combat over survival in ec is probably the most common problem I see because of this. You ask why they pick combat and they say "why not?" Like there's not enough dps with ass and mando in ec already...
  10. Stereo
    • Development Team

    Stereo Paper Boy

    I recall a time in EC when you'd have 1 or 3 survival rifles running around with traps. But I think that was when you could have infinite traps with infinite uses?
  11. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    Some of this current monkey see monkey due attitude is partly blamed on the old ways of thinking in regards to NOTD. There was a time when NOTD was really divided among the old players within the forums (See Blaqk's old post about a house being divided). Different groups of players had their own "cliques" where they liked to run games only a certain way and kept their methods and knowledge solely within that small group of players. In addition there was really a bad sense of elitism everywhere. If you so as much made an error as a newer player in their game, it was as if you were banned from their games and never allowed to play with them again. Basically, who you had as a player to mentor you really shaped how you played NOTD.

    In regards to me I started NOTD around late 2010 and that was a time when Alpha was 100 percent different compared to now (IVAX being the last boss for one and FO being super overpowered), EC rewarded less than 100xp for winning, and Apollo was barely finished. During that time 90 percent of the player base knew nothing about how to beat NOTD or had routes for that matter in pub games. What was even worse was players would never ever pick medic as a class. So I chose to play medic in pubs and it was solely based on doing that, that I got a chance to play with the vets because they would join pub to look for medics. Back then being able to play at 600xp with players who had 10k -12 kxp was really cool.

    Anyways I was fortunate enough to be part of the first group to beat Seth when he was first introduced into NOTD and I got a chance to be part of NM games as a lowly less than 1k xp player. Basically this group of players encouraged each other to find better routes and develop better ways to play a certain class. This group also encouraged spreading the knowledge and helping players in pubs. I can't say the same for players in other groups though.

    Unfortunately there was one group who was lead by one player and was a dictator in my opinion and many others would agree as well. This one player liked to run games a certain way and if you were not playing at a level that was deemed good by this player, he/she would pretty much rage at you and make you feel like crap. Even worse was how this player ran his/her group like Stalin and never really fostered innovation or initiative. There was even the mentality that if you had a certain amount of xp you were expected to be a certain level in terms of skill.

    I think mentoring plays a big role in NOTD.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. ImaDomo
    • Donator

    ImaDomo Clad In Armour

    Yeh, mentoring contributes to how you will be as player, it plays a big part. Lol on the Stalin thing, didn't play SEA much so didn't know about that. I'm just glad dRy is not mentoring anyone, cause we all know how that will turn out.....
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  13. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    dRy taught me how to beat Apollo NM for the first time. He is only a troll in pubs, which many of us are guilty of doing from time to time.

    Lastly domo, don't be badmouthing players there is a reason why I didn't name names in regards to SEA.
  14. ImaDomo
    • Donator

    ImaDomo Clad In Armour

    I'm just joking we all <3 dRy and his antics, and how can I badmouth players if I didn't even know about the SEA thing, it just pique my interest/curiosity as a player.
  15. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    ...What? I'm sorry Extifer but you're talking out of your ass on this one. And I know fully well who you're talking about and its very unfair to have this associated with how he operated.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  16. Extifer
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Extifer Stiffy is what Lyanden calls me.

    I did experience it personally and other players as well. I'm not saying it was like that with everyone, but that player was not the most popular person to say the least. Also, i am not saying I am a saint either as I have done a fair share of wrong doings.

    Anyways I'll pm you so as not to go offtopic.

    Edit update After talking with Yuey

    I should clarify that my recent comments and posts is not entirely a reflection of the entire SEA player base. SEA players after all were the first to beat Hades as far as I'm aware.

    Sometimes I forget to think about what I write and how it may affect others.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
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  17. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    IIRC, Surv NM as well. (Before the discovery of pathing blockers for GOTB)
  18. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    When did What made FS engy become obsolete? Nothing beats a free, replacable tank (probes), or an endless, cheap, spammable slow, armor debuff, with a bit of damage to boot (plasma), or a free arc reactor for everyone around (battery), up to 16 DPS per mob in range of a certain area, to a max of 8 mobs (towers), or free shared vision for everyone across the entire team (nexus) along with as many free tanks as you can mind control (nexus), the ability to remove short circuit with 2 energy or less (The engineer himself), the ability to replace demo shields at start (Repair beam)... FS engy's uses go on.. and on... and on... and on..
  19. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    More than likely the fact people realized higher firepower is more valuable than a myriad of small buffs. His best feature is the energy aura, but most classes wont have energy issues if you manage well, especially since the Restoration-energy buff. His most "helpful" feature was the shared vision, which you can compensate for with flares and whatnot. His biggest drawback is the sheer number of units he ends up microing, and that can get the engineer or allies killed.

    Replacing an Engy with a high dps class like an arms assault, submm, or something else will have the immediate benefit of killing better. More dps = less enemies, enemies die faster, bosses die quicker, less ammo is "wasted" as its being used to fire powered up guns, meaning less scouting needed. A dps class is always helpful, since you are virtually always shooting the enemy. A support class is only useful when the players can best make usage of his skills.
  20. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Zoo on queen gets people killed if you let the zoo tank queen. Assuming the dps classes are using flamers (which 95% of the time they better be doing), all the zoo does is block them and hide them from medics sight for shield on shriek. If you put zoo behind queen, sure they eat hits from mobs but they also eat kills that help the demo's sadist boost. Is this better than having a 2nd assault? Or an smm? Not even close imo. And in a high sq nm game, those 3 drones won't last too long tanking much. The armor debuff means next to nothing in ec, since flames are used on hulk waves and all high armored bosses. I coulda just saved time by putting a big +1 on what Niteshade said cuz he's spot on.

    I'm not saying it's completely useless in all ec nm games, just the ones that we all usually play. If playing an ec nm with no buying and players with not many mods, it is almost essential. When I first started playing ec nm it was one of the "must have" classes. The probes and/or plasma help immensely on the first 3 waves. Tower stun on tart, and having the zoo tank eos while everyone used lasers and hmgs. But the way we play ec nm has changed so dramatically that fs engi is less efficient than having another dps class.

    I think we all know that a good engi can cover up a multitude of faults for a team. All of this is assuming this engi is one of the handful that I have seen that actually have the micro skills to play it like it's meant to be played.
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