NOTD Ban System Discussion

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, Apr 7, 2012.

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  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Congrats Lucid for being the 1st person to be banned from NOTD - for 1 minute. Thanks for volunteering!

    Intro to Ban System
    On a more serious note, NOTD now has a working ban system. This will NOT be listed in Change Log for now. We don't want people to start having discussions about who should be banned etc - at least not the general public. This will be a tool used by Black Ops for now. Eventually the public will know about it, but not now. We need to have a discussion on policy and iron out all kinks/possible abuses/loop holes before this is announced formally.

    The ban system in NOTD should be used more as a last resort deterrent (i.e. nuclear arsenal) than something we casually impose on people. It takes manual intervention on the developer's end to build this in, and just creates bad blood and animosity when used excessively and inappropriately.

    Who Should Be Banned?
    I have a strong preference against banning ALL hackers. It just takes too much time and is too extreme - similar to how you won't sentence all criminals to the death penalty. It needs to be commensurate with the level of grievance they cause to the community as a whole. Sometimes the threat of action is enough of a deterrent. This is a tool for the Black Ops to use judgment - there are no hard and fast rules.

    How Will It Work?
    To ban a target, you need to be in a game with the individual and type '-id'. This lists all the player's SC2 IDs. Then, report it to the Black Ops forum and if it's a genuine issue, the person will be added to the Ban List. Duration and all that details - it's up for discussion. Please keep in mind that you want a solution that doesn't tax too much of the developer's time. Banlists don't add any new value to a game. It's just a hygiene factor.

    After a player is added to a ban list, they are NOT automatically banned from all games. Instead, the current mechanic is for you to type '-banrun' to check and ban all listed individuals. Again, this allows players to use judgement. For now, I would prefer that only Black Ops players be able to use '-banrun', to minimize abuse. To identify you, I need your SC2 ID (type -id to get it) so that I can add you to the Black Ops list.

    What Now?
    The system needs a lot of policy making to ensure it advances the community and not turn into a potential distraction from growth. We've seen examples of banlists splitting people apart and just ruining the atmosphere of some games. Brainstorm here and share genuine concerns. NOTD has lived without a ban list for 2 years. It doesn't NEED one. It's a useful deterrent, but not a must have.
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Hmm. Only thing I can think of that I know for sure I'd want the ban list used for isn't necessarily Hackers (Though I don't like them, they wouldn't be the ONE thing I'd choose), but instead Griefers and TKers.

    I'm sure you may say that VoteKick and Karmabite exist for this very purpose. Also you can probably think of several times where that was not an effective tool or deterrent. For example "Karmabite Immune" TKing. TKing in all but actually pulling the trigger, such as Force Pushing people into mobs constantly and with malice, Griefer Gun abuse against Players, Using Leaver Units, etc. Or even the people who late in an otherwise successful run will satchel/nuke everyone then DC to avoid getting Karmabitten.

    Now I'm not saying banlist for everyone that does this once. But it's not hard to spot patterns of behavior. People get reputations. It keeps happening. And lets face it, no one wants to play a game where your supposed cooperative teammate ruins your game. Particularly if you think "Okay, it's him or me, I'm going to take him out before he takes out the entire team!" (As some newbies would, or people ignorant of Votekicks), and end up being punished via a Karmabite for your trouble.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Thanks Arc.

    To add on, from what I understand from Blizzard, the current system is 'bulletproof'. The individual can't hack themselves out of it or delete their bank. The ban system doesn't rely on bank at all. The only way to circumvent it is to buy a new copy of StarCraft II (maybe re-install works, but I doubt it and is highly troublesome for anyone).
  4. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    That, is where you are mistaken.

    You however, should have the text command immediately hidden after displayed, or else you'll quickly see players using it left and right just to see what it does.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Honestly, I think it is a must-have. I'm really tired of the hackers showing newbies that it's "so easy" to get BS exp, credits, rating, and so on. I hate people that cheat, and I hate people that advocate cheating, and these kids are doing both. I'm fully agreeing that it shouldn't be used widely or lightly, but it is a very important aspect of keeping NOTD legit.
  6. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Please note that you can type -id into any chat and it still perform the in-game funciton if you want to ninja gank someone.
  7. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    In next patch, mouse over the person's Portrait to screenshot his ID.
  8. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Excellent job. I fully advocate the ban system and the conditions/comments made by ability.

    If we are to use the ban system, I suggest that we have to let the public know that player X has been banned for insert reason.

    The rationale is that we are "killing one to warn a hundred", and on top of banning existing hackers, we go one step further by warning all other players of the consequences.

    That said, we must have irrevocable proof that the player has committed insert reasons and those are seen as intolerable by the community at large.

    It is inevitable that we will hurt some people, bruise some egos, but every community of players needs a set of strong rules to govern them.
  9. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Thanks for getting this up and running on a trial run!

    Do you feel that we should nevertheless collate IDs of known/obvious hackers for future intervention but not as a priority to add now, but add at leisure so eventually we can autoban them all?


    P.S: You are now the only person I have "Thanked" for a post - because I can't rep you for it for fear of blowing the cover :D
  10. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    I agree with everyone here, the banlist SHOULD be in a game, but also must be reserved for last resort at all costs. Which brings me to my next point. At this current time, because of previous anti hacker measures, most hacked banks are NOT obvious, hackers have worked around and set values that are believable (6 weapons mods, <150K XP, avg XP and games player more or less add up). Now that we have a ban system, I propose we attempt to flush people into the open by REMOVING all the previous logic checks, and see what happens, a honeypot as it were.

    Thoughts?

    Edit: We will almost certainly need to allow pub player to run the banrun command and vote to ban someone, mainly because Black Ops are not necessarily in a pub and furthermore, some BO because of the hacker presence and newbs, will NOT play pubs anymore at all.
  11. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    AP I see where you're coming from, but this feels too important to let non-BO pub players know. I play pubs frequently, and if anything, I'm sure there are some other BO personnel that do that as well. Let these players handle the pubs.

    One question I have is that what do we do if previously known hackers have reformed? Do we ban or do we spare them? And for that matter, if we ban an existing hacker, how would we know if he would eventually 'reform' on his own?
  12. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    My hope is that eventually we can have a perm ban section for hackers where you don't even need to type -banrun but the game kicks them during/after load automatically, meaning -banrun is reserved for griefers and temp bans
  13. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    The system looks amazing. I haven't been playing NOTD lately, so can anyone tell me if this is working right now (outside of test runs) or will be implemented in the near future?

    For ban discussions, the easiest way I can think of is to either discuss it on one thread (in BO board) or have a subforum.

    Replying to AP's point, I believe that soon we'll be able to have server side anti hacker measures, in other words, records on the server that the hacker cannot modify.
  14. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    The information is going to be stored in the map file, most likely somewhere in the trigger editor. The worst that could happen is someone cracks the map and LOOKS at the lists, but they can do nothing to change them. Only way that could occur is if you somehow hacked ability and uploaded a notd patch with an altered ban list, and I highly doubt that would happen.
  15. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    The player IDs are stored as strings in the Trigger Editor. Because we've physically run out of space and need to optimize, realistically the bans need to be very selective.

    I'm also proposing removing the '-id' command since the SC2 IDs are already on Team Portrait. Any violent objections?
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    I don't see why such a change would be bad, all things considered. It's much more subtle to snag someone's ID off of the Team UI, so there's no need to have a command that openly notifies all present that you're grabbing IDs to ban someone.
  17. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    yea we can remove the -id command

    As for 1 trigger per person to ban, can't they all be included in 1 trigger which calls a list?
  18. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    -banrun = "run ban script"

    Any and all people currently in the banlist will be booted from the game at roughly the same time where -banlist was typed
    (i.e. 4 banlisted individuals in 1 game. Type -banrun, all 4 get kicked.)

    I'm assuming this means that if they play in another lobby, they would be able to provided no BO is present to activate the -banrun command. Is this correct?

    aka

    -banrun = "run ban script for this game"
  19. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Yes, affects your current game only
  20. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: NOTD Ban System

    Ok. What did you mean by this btw?

    I was under the impression that all those banlisted are affected by a single command (-banrun)
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