Unimplemented NOTD 2: The Flamethrower

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Sep 7, 2014.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yep! It's difficult to do and it can kill your teammates though, so you have to be pretty careful about not screwing up.

    Which is pretty much the theme of NOTD 2.
  2. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    "Boss" thinner, sorry for the typo.

    So I'm guessing pyro FT won't be sticking with flamethrower only right? (Arclite Hectate??)
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    I can assure you that the current iteration of "Inferno" is not useless and the new version will only be stronger.

    Screenshot2014-06-18 01_44_58.jpg

    Also, my thoughts on Frenzy being easier to stack in NOTD 2:

    Screenshot2014-06-25 19_33_09.jpg
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yes, very much so. Smite vastly overperforms in NOTD, having a DPS that's comparable/competitive to that of an Operations Commando on higher difficulties. The unfortunate truth is that once you get into 2300+ Rating and Nightmare, the enemies and bosses just have absurd amounts of hitpoints, so Smite's overperformance is almost necessary. However, we have learned from NOTD, and NOTD 2's scaling system is designed to not suffer from this problem, so Smite (among other abilities such as OSOK) no longer need to be insanely powerful.

    The new Smite will still be useful against bosses, but mostly to apply the slow and stack armor instead of shearing off hitpoints by the thousands. It has been scaled back to a tank skill instead of a primary source of DPS.

    The Pyro Flamethrower's abilities function with the regular flamethrower and the alternate version called the Incinerator that has a shorter range and a much wider splash. The Hecate is not going to be added because the Flamethrower no longer needs rifle-esque range or better anti-air. They're no longer restricted to a campaign that involves a lot of camping and a lot of air units and there's no longer a difficulty modifier that upgrades all enemies with Charge.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yuuup. I'm actually tempted to dial it back a bit, but I'm going to wait for testing and see how many people murder themselves with it before I do anything.

    Unfortunately for you, I won't be allowing that to happen. I forgot to clarify that the Frenzy stacks will only work for the Flamethrower and the Incinerator. They won't disappear if you unequip the weapons in question, but they won't boost other weapons. They'll still boost your movement speed, though.
  6. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that score screen pic is from EC NM, therefore it's technically not evidence that the talent itself is overpowered, as you're using it out of the class's designed storyline.
  7. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    The difference being that my displayed kills is likely the sum of all kills in an AC nightmare. The problem with Inferno isn't that it's underwhelming, it's that you get it at the worst possible time. You'll get it sometime during the post-Cronus lab sequence and after those mobs have been cleared there's really not much else that bunches up well enough for that talent to shine. Inferno would be ideal at the MAJOR holdouts that Alpha Company has, however they all occur far too early into the game.
  8. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Which is why it's flat out weak. If it's literally worse at doing what the opposite tree's tier 1 does (read, damage), as a tier 3, it's a bad talent and needs a serious design change, due to being designed around being obtained late in a storyline, where anything you could hit with it is too strong to die to it, or a buff.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014
  9. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Inputs below.

    Conviction
    To clarify Conviction's effect, proposed update to tooltip.
    Current: After the invulnerability period ends, recorded damage is dealt to energy, shields, and health over 30 seconds.
    Proposed: After invulnerability ends, recorded damage first depletes energy, then shields, and finally health over 30 seconds.

    Shatter
    On Energy efficiency, Burst Fire will be more effective in more situations except in boss fights:
    Damage: 200+ damage in a group for Burst Fire vs. max 600 damage on single target for Shatter at Level 3 (any Burst Fire cast on >3 targets is higher efficiency)
    Cooldown: 0 on Burst Fire vs. 5 on Shatter
    Energy Cost: 15 per cast on both
    Range: 6 on Burst Fire vs. 7 on Shatter (not major difference)

    Will recommend reducing Shatter's Energy cost from 15 to 10. If a smart player can chain-cast it on the right targets (killing enemies) to refresh the cooldown, they should have enough energy to spam it.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    In terms of damage obtained vs energy spent, yes, Burst Fire is better. However, Shatter generates armor from Righteousness, so I'm in disagreement over the proposed energy cost adjustment without testing first.

    I will clarify Conviction's description when I'm not posting from a phone.
  11. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    Would Conviction depletes energy would be a very bad idea? Think about it, after 15 sec invulnerability ends, the worst case you would have is ran out of energy to sprint, jump, crowd control... etc as it constantly zero-ed for full 30 seconds, which no one would be happy about it. I would rather get myself short circuited instead of happy triggering Conviction. Also, health can be substituted by healing items and Medic, but not energy. Order FT would become a useless meat after every Conviction and will have difficulty recharging energy from the 30 second depletion.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    They would also be able to survive literally anything for 15 seconds.
  13. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    Nuke + Conviction go.
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Changelog:
    • Formatting changes.
    • Rebalanced energy costs (slightly) to fit the new standard.
    • Innate ability changed to Fuel Injection, which allows the Flamethrower weapon to hit air units.
    • "Pyro" renamed to "Chaos" because I'm a nerd.
    • Burst Fire's damage has been increased significantly and its cooldown adjusted.
    • The old Fuel Injection has been replaced by Improved Propellant, which boosts projectile and weapon range instead of damage and projectile range.
    • Frenzy has been rebalanced, granting total bonus damage and attack speed and being able to be generated by weapon damage.
    • Napalm Grenade's effect now sticks to units and has had its damage increased. The damage vulnerability has been removed for balance concerns.
    • Napalm Grenade's cooldown has been reduced to 10 seconds.
    • Inferno's explosion damage has been increased by 100 and its cooldown increased to 30 seconds.
    • Scorched Earth has been replaced by Wildfire, a DPS boots that engages friendly fire for weapon splash and Burst Fire.
    • Righteousness's bonus armor duration has been changed from increments of 10 to increments of 8.
    • Some Order tooltips have been cleaned up and/or adjusted.
    • Conviction (aka Limited Invulnerability) has been replaced by Gospel, a single target permanent taunt.
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
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  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Changelog:
    • More tooltip revisions.
    • Property clarifications have been made.
    • Frenzy has been rebalanced.
    • Napalm Grenade has been rebalanced.
    • Righteousness has had its duration standardized to 10 seconds at all levels. Levels now increase the stack limit.
    • Added Friendly Fire to Smite.
  17. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    How long does the Napalm Grenade's Napalm last?
    From my Understanding, it creates a persistent fire at a spot for X seconds, and any units that pass through that fire have a Burn effect applied that deals 20 damage per second for 30 seconds.

    In regards to Wildfire, is this the base damage upgrade a la Midnight Animal or is it just a buff? I think in the future, you might want to clarify for all weapon damage boosting skills , abilities, whether or not it is a buff or upgrade.

    In regards to Smite, how exactly will it fare on higher difficulties? The fact that upon passing 2500 hp, enemies are drastically less effected makes me concerned. Will our superheavy enemies always be above 2500 maximum health, or will they be under it in lower difficulties then above it in higher difficulties?
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    In this situation, X = 30. I'll clarify.

    It's a buff. The only damage boosting effect that is not a buff is Midnight Animal.

    Super Heavy enemies are always above 2500 Maximum Health, but they were already subject to the reduced effects before this change due to being Heroic. To quiet your concerns, I'll let you in on a development secret: Under no circumstances will the Health scaling of regular enemies go above 50%. The most durable non-heroic enemy in the game is the Mastermind, clocking in at 1500 health, so a 50% boost will leave it at 2250 - close, but no cigar.

    If in the future we happen to require a greater challenge for the harder difficulties, rather than boost the Health Scaling some more, we will explore other avenues of making the enemies more challenging. Some examples off of the top of my head are Health Regeneration,
    Damage Reduction (both flat and percentage), Movement Modifiers (such as Cliff Walk or Charge), or limited projectile attacks (zombies throwin' rocks!).
  19. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    That pretty much addresses my concerns with Smite.

    Will Flamethrower Equivalent weapons affect / be affected by Chaos Abilities?
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yes, this is mentioned in the Chaos tree blurb and in the effect information for every Chaos ability except for Napalm Grenade, which does not require a flamethrower-type weapon to be equipped for what I hope are obvious reasons.

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