New game mode(s) to fix some issues

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Attack Wizard, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    I'm a new player, I play this NOTD game which seems to be fun and have high rating, I go into the only mode that the game allows me to play, at this point I have not idea wtf EC recruit means. I walk around with few others at beginning, OMG shitload of zerg is attacking is, wtf is a zerg? gg few other new players lost a life durign that encounter. I look to my right and someone have 4099 xp, omg that must be very hard, so I decide to follow him, he runs into a mob and dies, quits the game, leaving 7 other players with around total of 1000 xp. I feel lost, so I decide to walk around, all off suddent, it goes into cut scene with giant zombie killing civilians and bane. I'm now lost even more. I wander around, omg mutalisk, wtf, I died, confused.

    I decide to give this game another try, it appears this time theres a patch, I download the patch and wait for the game to load, WTF drop. FU bnet. Ok I decide to give the game another try, this time it loaded, I know a bit more about this game now, I decide to wander closer to teammates, theres a guy with 10,045 xp, he must be good. Eventually more and more players dies to zombies, lots of them, it appears that this time, this game have a lot mroe zombies, I don't know why, but evne the 10,045 xp player died, I thought he was a pro. The amount of zombie that spawned this time is unreal, well fuck it, I decide to play another game.


    That's probably a typical story of a new NOTD player trying out the game the 1st time. What they don't know is basic strategy, classes, blab blab. They also don't know that 10,045 xp player by no mean is considered experienced by today's standard, and this crazy amount of zombie spawn is actually a bug introduced in the recent patch. So they quit the game and move on. Do you honestly expect people brand new to this game will take their time to complain about the game being too difficult on the forum? Even if 1-2 did do so, what's sweep under the rug is something like 100-200?
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Mostly because of Speedy. The angry reply was not aimed at you - you didn't do anything wrong. I apologize for not replying to your post when I locked the thread; I've been working very hard on NOTD II and I'm more irritable than I usually am (and as I'm sure you can ask any of the old vets, I get angry pretty fast). I'll respond to your post from that thread, and I apologize for not responding to it earlier.

    We do consider the wants and needs of the players. Aside from the class rebalancing, all of the changes that I've pushed have been either to liven up a boring boss or to make Nightmare (and only Nightmare) strictly more difficult. Many Survival games of NOTD's nature have always had extremely brutal difficulty if the players felt they were up for it because PvE gets easy after a while. AI is never perfect, so patterns emerge and people learn how to respond to those patterns. Nightmare traditionally meant adding in more and more difficult things to challenge the players, but as of late Nightmare simply hasn't been hard enough because players have been able to farm it with relatively little effort. The enormous difficulty/spawn spike in the other modes was a bug involving the Infestors. As far as I'm aware, it has since been fixed.

    As for IVAX and Cronus, IVAX's stun invulnerability was put in because the players were capable of killing him off-screen with an Artillery Forward Observer. I will speak with Arcane about removing the stun invulnerability when the Forward Observer rework is completed which will lower Arty's cheese potential.

    Correct. Other than some classes being balanced out to be less Rambo-y, there have been no intended changes to the overall difficulty of the game. Difficulty increases have been intended for Nightmare only.

    NOTD gives the players instructions multiple times, along with many other helpful tips. It is not our fault if the players do not take advantage of these things.

    No, we don't. What's your point?
  3. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    You can have people instructions 2348823947823947 times, and chances are, most people learn on the go, if they have a bad experience initially, then most likely they will try it once or twice more then not ever touch it again.

    "No, we don't. What's your point?"

    So you don't expect new players to come to forum complain about how game is getting so difficult (pretty much silenced), yet, you go about doing your balance thinking whats said on this forum is a normal distribution of players across NOTD, but reality is comments coming from the forum is skewed heavily towards the vet/experienced players. If that's the case and you take your comments only from the forum, how are you "balancing" the game? all you are really doing is making it harder and harder, since the only comments are from the forum, newer players wont have a weight in any of that.
  4. DarkRev

    DarkRev New Member

    In regards to this discussion about the game being to difficult and whatnot for new and/or less experienced players, I don't feel that all the recent balance changes make the game incredibly harder for them. Why? The developers have said it, a lot of them only affect Nightmare games. And this is good, I think its a great step in the right direction. Relatively new players shouldn't even be playing Nightmare games, let alone be expecting to win them and for it to be easy. It makes no sense.

    But on to what I do believe is the problem. I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not, or if many people have noticed it, but Squad Rating doesn't seem to scale difficulty as it should. In fact, I find Squad Rating actually doesn't matter at all. The ambient spawns are so different in each game, that I have personally been in 1600 SQ or so public games, only to find myself comparing the spawns to an 2000 or more SQ game. To give an example I will use the muta wave that follows the Drop Ship objective in Easy Company. I've had low SQ games where the whole teams wipes even while having good DPS and sonic traps. The amount of mutas where simply overwhelming and given many of the players where new or not so experienced, they didn't react perfectly or use skills to save the team from wiping.

    And this is fine...until I play another public game with very similar SQ and number of inexperienced player, only to find myself basically counting like 20 mutas during the whole wave.

    I understand if you want to make the game feel dynamic, to give it a little bit of that 'uncertainty' factor. Something that suddenly the team wasn't expecting. To keep them on their toes at all times. And this is awesome, it's seriously one of my favorites things about NOTD. I never know how a game will turn out, but I like to challenge myself to adapt quickly. In fact, I even hate when a game goes perfectly.

    And so all I'm trying to say is, keep that uncertainty factor, but make SQ actually matter a lot. Nerf low SQ games, but buff madly high SQ games. Make it so if you have 2000 or more rating (without constantly backing up your bank of course) it actually feels like an accomplishment and it shows that you've earned it because you are a good or even great NOTD player.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    "Unless more people come to the forums, and those people make posts about the game being too difficult and give appropriate feedback (how is it too difficult; what should be changed to make it more reasonable) then the view of the game being too easy will persist."

    Please come to play with us on NA, recently, we've only gotten around 30 people in channel, due to all the crazies with the game and age old drop issues.
  6. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member


    You're heavily implying, if not assuming, my opinions on a subject are the same as Kithrixx's, as well as how I look at balance and feedback compared to Kithrixx.

    Its nice that you can take the words of one person, and market them as the words of another, but unfortunately that is pretty bad unless one is the representative of another. There is a difference between how one person "thinks" another person acts. You're marketing my guess on the basis of Kithrixx's opinion of game difficulty, as a fact about Kithrixx. As far as I am concerned, Kithrixx hasn't said anything about drawing a large amount of players to the forum for their feedback; those are my words and my opinions. My expectations and Kithrixx's expectations are not the same. While we may have points of agreement on certain subjects, that does not mean we completely agree with each other. Maybe if you properly used the Quote function, you would notice that obvious problem. Don't market the words of one person as the opinion and views of another.

    Are you referring to Kithrixx or to me?

    Because the quote is from me, but you were just arguing that it was a point Kithrixx was following but contradicting. So who are you referring to?

    In any case, didn't you argue against Developers playing the game but then balancing off of that one play, hence jacking the difficulty up, which was part of the entire Shields & Rating charade? Where you kept complaining on the fact that Kithrixx was stating his opinions based on games he played? So what should the developers do? Play a game, then balance based on their experiences in that game and then get shit on by you for no apparent reason other than "prove that you played that game and that it went like you said it did!" What is the purpose of a developer playing the game, and then balancing based on that experience, when you disagree with how they balanced the game based on that experience?

    Unfortunately, developers and people who have played the game before do not have the same Point of View as new players. Thus, it is difficult for developers and experienced players to give pertinent feedback about how new players experience the game. Yes, we saw that scenario you posted on the top of this page, but that contradicts the Opening Post by Attack Wizard. One person is claiming that people aren't giving new players enough credit for their skill, the other is claiming that new players are incompetent and unable to play effectively. So which do we go with?
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I don't understand what you believe should be done about this. I can't magically make every game full of well-intentioned vets that are comfortable with leading and teaching.

    You seem to fail to understand that the only mode that was intended to get more difficult was Nightmare.


    I really don't know where you got the idea that I get all of my balance whatevers from the forum. I sometimes use the forum to refine an idea, but I'm fully aware that not everyone frequents these boards. Much of the balancing is done by myself, sometimes influenced by suggestions and/or complaints that I receive through the forum or Starcraft II. Sometimes it's influenced by playing other games, and seeing how the AAA developers do their thing. I once criticized Ability for studying Call of Duty and using concepts from it as ideas for NOTD, and I was wrong in doing so. While it may not have been the best source material, there are many things that we have to learn from other games.

    But anyways, game balance is... hard to describe. It's about a 50:50 split between simple number crunching and making sure the thing that you're building is actually fun. You also have to come up with something that can be created within a reasonable timeframe without too much difficulty or room for bugginess.

    That said, I'm assuming you're of the opinion that spawns need to be reduced for Recruit, and to be honest I'm right there with you on that. However, it is not as simple as just "making it happen", as we need to
    • Find the proper value to edit in the first place
    • Decide on the proper amount
    • Edit the value properly (much more difficult than it sounds)
    all of which take time, effort, and skill. In a perfect world we'd have access to all three, but the world is not perfect so we've only got access to one (two if we're lucky).
  8. craft
    • Donator

    craft Member


    The issue is that, are the vets willing to play none-NM? the CP decay is damaging for them. CP isn't about specialising in 2-3 classes like it used to be with 33% decay, there are people with more then 10 cp in every single class. Since the vets are unwilling to lose their CP from VET games decay and the lack of +2CP speed, are the new players able to play ECVET/ACVET by themselves?

    Would Vet hosts invite new players to NM game? It would reduce the chance of MOH significantly and might cause the game to fail.

    Suggestions:
    -Balance out nm/vets to have the same decay of either 20% or 15%, I don't care which.

    -Increase exp gain for ECNM, personally I don't play ecnm because i wont want to spend 45 mins for 19 exp if somebody screws up. The total exp gain is also lower then surv NM, and around 3x lower then acnm and secnm. Nobody does comms, cvs, and rarely complete eggs.

    - Do something about the speed of killing ivax, dodging bombs are fun but if we have new players playing cmd and ft and all those classes. It gets kind of lame

    -Fix the -1 karma formula, I don't really enjoy tabbing out to back up my file every time the game fails to load/DCs . perhaps implement the -1 after 1 minute into the game or after class selection?

    -Ability and Kith should fix/implement changes less and play more to get a feel of what is going on. Esp you ability.
  9. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    On the topic of 19 xp for something going wrong after 45 min it's not ecnm specific. Surv at wave 20 gives astonishing 23 xp, acnm untill cronus is around 30-35.
    It's kind of a 'rule' that 2/3rd of xp is granted on win (win bonus,nm bonus, speed bonus, killing final boss in itself).

    While ecnm is kind of on short end of a stick it comes not only from it's dificulty but also from 'gamble' elements that make ecnm not a granted speed like other modes.
    These values will vary as i get bunch of bonuses but xp gain across the difficulties for me is roughtly: (all being speed -nm games)
    ec: ~180 (no airlock civs, no comms bonus, no apollo civs, no truck)
    ac: ~240 (no comms bonus)
    sec: ~345 (no save bergman bonus, usually no hal shutdown either)
    surv: ~240

    Only ecnm is the mode where we struggle for speed often losing it by 1 min margin, despite whole team living to an end and doing their jobs. While others are 'safe' speed even if you play with 4/8 players from 2nd chapter onwards with exception of sec depending on who survived.



    It was and probably still should be substracted the moment you pick a class not on game load itself.
  10. craft
    • Donator

    craft Member


    Personally i find that acnm/secnm/survnm is faster. maybe not just by the time spent, but by the fact that you are actually doing more things. by the time ECNM reaches eggs, you would probably had ran 2 circles around the map. and it isn't that much of doing missions but plain PVE. you lose cos you get overwhelmed or some guy dies getting killed by ambient spawns. Personally, i find acnm is interesting enough already. I fully support the ivax buff, though the duration of the fight needs to be reduced. the crazy spawns while at the fort is also interesting.

    For it's difficulty level, and absolute boringness, ECNM should be worked on more. If you look at the storyline, EC is after the events of Sec and AC. Maybe this isnt true for new players as EC is the first game they ever play, but this is true for VETS and experienced players playing NM. The boss in ECNM should be changed and be based on technique and skills. A different kind of difficulty, like the ivax, chronos (and soon to be perses) change, where some skill is needed. This is to keep things interesting. EXP should also be buffed significantly. because ECNM isnt the start of a player's NM journey. Previously it is ACNM/SURVNM in NA and now just SURVNM in NA. ECNM is something that you would complete around the time you are able to complete SECNM. (of course acnm buff changes everything once again)

    I personally find the progression of a regular player to be like this (you can also contest that)

    -EC(pub)
    -AC
    -ACNM/SURVNM
    -SECNM/ECNM

    Of course with recent AC changes it has become
    -EC(pub)
    -AC/SURVNM
    -SECNM/ECNM
    -ACNM


    @nik, i think they still -1 karma once the game loads. and don't forget there is the 1 minute drops mark, due to bnet i think
  11. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Craft, you can add me (Ability.749) on NA server. Happy to play a few games.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Man, there were a whole bunch of boss tweaks/buffs that were supposed to be made to the EC Bosses to make them more interesting to fight. I have no idea where they went.
  13. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    There are certain people on the forum that goes directly with the quote who said what, and you must use it to their exact intent, if so be it. If you want to make the argument that I miss quoted someone, yet you have similar viewpoints but not 100%, then I give up on that stupid argument.

    In my opinion, whoever is doing the balance better play at least 1 game of each patch iteration, to truly understand what each patch has done to the NOTD population, and from the past experience, that was not done. Let me give you an example, Developer X plays NOTD version 1.01 found some bug, take a week break, plays version 1.05. Thinking nothing major happened in between. What he may or may not know is version 1.02 had a huge bug with crazy zombie spawns, version 1.03 had unplayable EC recruit, 1.04 have a major bug where it requires entire reroll essentially taken back to version 1.01, which is now version 1.05. That is essentially what has happened, at least on two different occasions. If someone indeed understand all those "bugs" ultimately cost your player database, you wouldn't be doing any re-balance. Go on the channel, ask anyone if they want re-balance vs. bug fixes and no more introduction of new bugs. I bet you know what the answer will be.

    Here are two issues I see.

    1) introduction of new bug fixes creates new bugs, which require quick fix, which creates even more bugs, ultimately re-roll into previous stable patch.
    I think this issue is somewhat fixed with introduction of NOTD Unstable. However, it could still happen if bugs slips pass the QA i.e. "Niktos"
    2) developers game balance that should be of a much lower priority instead of bug fixes.
    Still a problem, how about spending some time on NOTD chan, ask around if people prefer fixing bugs or game balances.

    The combination of above 2 identified issues are costing your player base every single day, there was a huge drop of population from around 50 on avg to 30 after 2 major bugs rendering NOTD unplayable for weeks.

    If you truly care about your player population, go fix bugs instead of balances. Otherwise, you'll probably end up with a product that may be good, but now lost all of its player base, and essentially dead. Unless that is what you intent to do to begin with.


    PS. Arturia: I skimmed over what you wrote, and deemed it more or less defending your previous post instead of contributing to what this thread is about "issues of NOTD" and consider it waste of time. Feel free to play more on NA server, unless EU or SEA have a much bigger population.
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I don't know where you got the idea that we don't test the changes before implementing them. Yes, bugs get through, but that's because testing and bug hunting is not an exact science and we cannot plan for every possible situation. Multithreading is complicated stuff - when Arcane originally started work on the map and updated the Critical Strike formula, somewhere in the ballpark of 50 to 60 other things broke as a result. We didn't know that things broke until the patch was applied because Arcane tested it himself and nothing came up.

    Who is Developer X, then? 'cause if it's me, again, I've got no direct influence on NOTD. NOTD II is a different story 'cause I'm doing the terrain and learning data, but NOTD is Arcane's ballgame. If Dev X is Arcane, then again, he tests everything he does before he implements changes. Sometimes things slip by him. It happens. Oops. If Dev X is Ability, then your example breaks down entirely 'cause Ability doesn't make many changes these days because he's busy with life.

    Two things. First, you have GOT to stop implying that the dev team is stupid and/or doesn't understand things. Problems happened and we lost players. We get it. It's been said multiple times. Speaking of multiple times, that brings me to the second thing: stop repeating yourself. It's getting fucking annoying.

    Funny story, I do that periodically. It's about half and half. Of course people want bugfixes, but when I tell them that the bugfixes are going to happen regardless, they also ask for new content.

    Hey, y'know, nothing is stopping you from joining Niktos in the crusade against bugs. You've got an enormous opportunity to help in multiple ways, but as far as I can tell, you're content to bitch instead.

    Yeah, tell me: how many of the past couple patches have involved mechanics reworks? Maybe two or three in the past couple months? You are VASTLY overstating how much new content gets moved.

    We ARE working on the bugs. Or is the bug section just not visible to you? Can you not see all of the bug reports and the "fixed" tags? If that's the problem, I'll get your forum permissions cleaned up.


    I have zero issues with putting you in time out for being a shithead to other members. You're more or less defending your own post with this reply, because everything you've stated has been stated before multiple times. If you're going to play the game of "bring something new to the thread or don't post at all", you'd be better off not posting considering that you've yet to bring me new information.
  15. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Since I'm not going to waste any more time trying to be a civilized person who writes politely, it's going to be short.

    @vexxenon, Get a fucking argument and stop saying the same shit. It got old after the first few times. Address the entire post or address none of it. Anyone can selectively pick something out to argue against. Also, hypocrite much? You've yet to say something related to any of the 4 points in the original post. Don't even try to fit it in by overgeneralizing, because you'll miss the intent. I'll also conveniently ignore everything you say because I doubt I'll hear something new from you anyways.

    Until Attack Wizard, craft, supernova, Bobdrix, DarkRev, or someone else posts, there is no further need to bother posting in this thread. Everything brought up in the original post has already been addressed. The original post has already become a distant past. This thread is just going to repeat a pattern of vex vs Dev & BO and there is no reason to waste time on that.
  16. Bobdrix

    Bobdrix New Member

    Hey Kith,

    Thanks for the reply, it certainly clears things up a lot. From what you have said regarding Cronus and Ivax, I assume that the devs are eventually going to emphasize the need for teamwork as compared to the current reliance on individual skill and ability. Going forward, perhaps changes could be assessed in this broad manner before implementation. (ie. What will this change do in terms of game play? Will it emphasize solo play through brainless kiting (Ivax) or will it require a specific and precise strategy from the TEAM.)

    Next, having played regularly during this unstable period, it doesn't take a genius to note that the community is unhappy and perhaps, angry. While some might argue that they are angry because of the changes, the drops, the lag, etc... Essentially, they are angry because the devs have disrupted Status Quo. While the game might not have been sufficiently challenging, the bottomline is, that majority of the players enjoyed the game thoroughly and had fun. Hence, they enjoyed Status Quo and are highly resistant to change. So despite the good intentions that the devs have for the game, by implementing various major changes into the game that were often unstable and at times, unplayable; the devs can expect heavy flak and criticism for it. And clearly, it is what you have been experiencing right now from Vex, Speedy and countless others.

    As such, i think it is apt to note what everyone thinks and is trying to point out fundamentally (some more vocal and aggressive than others) - The game was a lot more fun and enjoyable when things were Status Quo. These days, you'll probably get flamed pretty badly for putting 'fun' and 'NOTD' in the same sentence. And as with games, I believe that is the biggest cause for worry - When a game just isn't fun anymore. So make your improvements/changes and whatnots but while doing so, keep the game FUN.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Sure. I apologize for not responding better originally. Yes, it's my intention for both Cronus and IVAX to be stun-vulnerable. As far as I'm aware (again, been busy with NOTD II, balancing Cronus has been Arcane's racket), Cronus isn't immune to stuns, but if he is, that's to prevent the whole "stun to disable laser blossom" bug that has been present for the last forever. IVAX is currently immune to stuns because the Arty FO can shit on him from across the map and laugh about it. With the FO Rework finally being completed, the FO's Shockwave Barrage will no longer have the full duration vs. bosses and Napalm's slowing effect will only work on Biological units. They will once again be much more vulnerable to coordinated teams once things get ironed out.

    The Status Quo as far as the normal game goes is still roughly the same, and will remain roughly the same. The only Status Quo I'm looking to disrupt is the hardest difficulty. I know that doesn't make a lot of people very happy, but they can deal. I was brought on to make the game good, not to cater to people who like to grind. I want NM to be something challenging that people feel good about beating, not something that they can knock out in an hour.

    Depends on who you ask. The Casual Crowd, as I like to call them, enjoyed the concept of an accessible Nightmare. They liked being able to conquer the supposed "hard mode", because winning feels good. However, NM being so easy and practically predetermined has also killed off many of our old players due to simple lack of interest. Many times we would organize games, only to go through the motions once again: another Speed NM that took relatively little effort from everyone involved.

    NOTD:AM, to this day, still has a playerbase. Even though it's many years old, people still love to play it because Nightmare is still a difficult game. Even if you have the four "power classes" (DM, FR, FO, CE), the game isn't a sure thing. It still takes effort. I'm fully aware that I'm pissing off people that like Nightmare being easy. To be 100% totally honest with you? I don't care. Nightmare isn't supposed to be easy. Devil May Cry has been a series that has always featured a "Dante Must Die" mode that was, hands down, the most difficult mode. The most recent installment/reboot, DmC? People were furious to find that it was nowhere near as difficult as the Dante Must Die of the previous games.

    If the players don't like the fact that I'm working to make Nightmare harder? There's always Veteran/Hardened.
  18. Bobdrix

    Bobdrix New Member

    To be more specific, the status quo i'm referring to mainly comes from players' perspectives. As you've mentioned and observed, players were actively playing nightmare games more than any other mode. This set forth their Status Quo where they thoroughly enjoyed things as they were. By making nightmare harder, you are forcing this group of players, albeit less-skilled than veterans and selected individuals, to scale down. In doing so, you are essentially telling them to (1) be less efficient, (2) feel lousier about themselves. Simply put, you've inevitably forced unhappiness on their end and as a consequence, many from this group have opted out of the game entirely.

    While Veteran and Hardened modes are available and should be chosen for the majority of players, a simple fact remains - Players who enjoyed reaping the rewards of nm previously will die trying to complete a game of nightmare. And they shouldn't be questioned trying to do so. After all, why settle for any less? This scenario is akin to an employee who is being asked to take a significant pay cut. And what we're seeing typifies the general state of inertia that each individual possesses to remain in this Status Quo. Hence, while these modes are readily available and suitable, don't expect many to switch or transit that readily.

    As such, while your concerns for the 'elite' or veteran group are certainly valid and should be addressed, perhaps a different approach should be taken. I doubt any game in history has forced their players to scale down for the aforementioned reasons. But to inject fresh challenge into a game which is presumably matured, devs normally seek to create a whole different mode instead of buffing an existing one. Arguably, the main reason in doing so is technically from a marketing standpoint. Gamers are your customers, and they need to stay happy to ensure success for the business.

    Going forward, changes have already been made and the herd has been thinned. Those that remain are the faithful few that will stick by NOTD through thick and thin. If you agree with what i've pointed out thus far, perhaps you should reconsider making nightmare the hardest mode. Tweak it as you deem fit, but consider the fact that the majority of players will be affected since that's the only mode they'll ever play. And to achieve your goal of satisfying the vets - utilise a marketing gimmick; create a mode more difficult than nightmare and in this manner, keep everyone happy.
  19. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'm sorry, but that's just too bad. I cannot condone simply making the game easier (especially when it is its own specific mode) because some people got upset that they're not good enough for the intended difficulty. This is why I always try to overdo difficulty and adjust down, rather than undershoot and adjust up - people get complacent, and by extension, entitled.



    That's an exceptionally poor example, and also an inaccurate one. A better example would be telling an employee that they've worked a ton of overtime, but haven't done very much during that overtime. As a result, they are now being expected to work harder to achieve their overtime pay and if they're displeased with that, they have the option to not work overtime or to improve their output.

    TF2, Left 4 Dead, Borderlands 2, Company of Heroes, and many other titles come to mind.

    No. There's Recruit, there's Veteran, and there's Nightmare. We do not need interim difficulties because we have Squad Rating. This is not a new issue, and Rating is actually the cause of the last one. We did this thing where we made Rating harder to get and led a higher rating to impact the game more than it previously did. People lost their minds over it, because previously 2k rating was easy to get and easy to keep, and by golly they wanted their numbers back. People liked having the numbers to prove that they were top dog even though they weren't.

    People are going to get mad about things no matter what we do. For a recent example that I am incredibly familiar with, Borderlands 2 has seen multiple backlashes from its fans for balance adjustments. There was a time that the Bee (a legendary item that boosted your attack power enormously at the cost of defense) was THE shield to use because it was just so powerful. Then Gearbox nerfed it to be more reasonable and people lost their minds, despite the fact that duped Bees were everywhere and making the game a total cakewalk, therefore lowering its replay value. When they raised the level cap, another backlash happened when people got angry that all of their hard-earned level 50 gear was rendered obsolete, even though it opened up more options for builds and added more gear to loot.

    The bottom line is that I cannot please everyone, so I'm not even going to try. NOTD as a series has always been about teamwork and skill, and the changes I'm pushing for Nightmare emphasize both of those things. If players don't like these changes, they are more than welcome to continue playing Recruit and Veteran while I make the hard mode actually hard.
  20. Bobdrix

    Bobdrix New Member

    Fair enough, I'm not here to argue and reinvent NOTD as a whole. I'm just here to provide some feedback seeing how things have evidently gone downhill. I believe i've said enough so take whatever sounds plausible to you and ignore the rest. As for the rest of the community reading this thread, I hope you've gain better understanding with regards to the changes and will lend your support to the devs.

    For Kith: Thanks very much for taking the time out to respond to a relatively new player like me. I believe you've justified your decisions pretty well and I wish you all the best.

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