My beef with order flamer

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Pyromaniac, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    Before continuing, I wish to openly state that order flamer is altogether, a very good class, and that I will be simply critical of a skill, offering no replacement, and I request that after making my statement, that people offer counter arguments, support for my argument, and perhaps a replacement idea.

    I find righteousness (+1 armor for enemies smited) to be replaced with something else. Alpha, the class flamer is found by default, is widely regarded as a dps campaign. Righteousness offers the ability to tank, but what gets tanked? Demeter has few mobs to smite to gain armor, and Demeter's deadliness lies in the slithers (for the flamer that is) [also, I think stunning Demeter should cause Demeter to stop attacking, like Perses] Armor means nothing when you're dying to the venom, and flamer is often stunned (there are ways to avoid, I recognize that) so smite to gain armor to take less damage from the slithers is not a viable option. No mobs require tanking, and most get melted in an ideal situation, or is stunned or slowed long enough before they are able to get a deadly amount of hits in. Chronos should not be tanked [excessively] because vengeance can cause him to be stunned while on creep all too easily, and kiting is the better option. Because zombies come from all directions during labs, tanking them is borderline improbable, and many flamers will have faith as an option by this time, which is very effective if there is too much chaos.

    Cerberus is the best argument defending righteousness. The extra armor provided can significantly cut damage received, and this is the only boss where mobs can be smited with great effect. I disagree with the usefulness of righteousness in this area because smite deals a good deal of damage to the boss while not in nightmare mode, and while in nightmare mode, the flamer can be shielded by medic constantly, vengeance stunning Cerberus which can allow for the flamer to attack the mobs with a shotgun/flamer (or crowbar I suppose). If it's not navy cross, flamer with kits and max vengeance can easily tank, and use shatter as additional damage, along with smite (faith can be useful so long as you are able to counter the negative effects of it with kits).

    In a navy run, shield spamming would be the best way to help flamer survive, and righteousness does not strengthen shields.

    Occasionally the flamer will tank some mobs during the A path, but with a decent/balanced team build and strategy, the flamer will not be put in a position where +armor will significantly help.

    Ivax is similar to Chronos in the aspect that tanking with flamer is not entirely safe (but is not an entirely bad idea) and once again, the flamer will be smiting the boss (which offers no +armor) for serious damage. I am not saying Ivax should not be tanked, I am saying that righteousness will not help the flamer tank Ivax, and flamer is overall better suited for kiting.

    Perses is generally not a threat to the flamer, being armed with solid armor certainly by now, the team well equipped to handle Perses. Spamming faith and having heals is easy at this point.

    I recognize that righteousness is GOOD in EC, but a talent's usefulness cannot be effectively weighed by referring to a campaign that the class is not accessible by default.

    Any ideas for replacements that I have will be placed after this line

    Perhaps something to make smite heal.... [Argument can be had that perhaps order shouldnt be a healing tank]

    Passive boost which increases smite's effectiveness on heroic/bosses (perhaps slow and/or more dmg)

    Passively boosts Vengence, increasing the duration of the stun, and perhaps the probability of a stun happening
    (Riders should be considered)
  2. ForeRunner

    ForeRunner Well-Known Member

    My only concern with making smite able to heal is it may impact the effectivness of shatter as a heal. That being said switching rightousness to lets say 0.5 HPs or 1% Health Regen per target hit by smite (numbers are of course subject to change as seen fit) to give the flamer an anti-horde healing mechanic leaving shatter as an anti-boss healing mehcanic
  3. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    idc how it heals, i was just tossing ideas vaguely to see where it landed.
  4. SkullCapp

    SkullCapp Well-Known Member

    So you have problem with righteous or smite?
  5. Archangel

    Archangel Well-Known Member

    could do something with the shields.
    ex: gain +1 or 2 shield per enemy smited. Or add shield armor.

    im just spitballing here. The only time I've ever really used that skill was to tank massive mobs in Easy Company. And even the it was a few times that it was needed.
  6. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    righteousness, smite is a terrific skill, but righteousness gives the flamer a buff that cannot be used in a useful way (in Alpha). I'm not a huge fan of shield increase as a replacement for the same reason as armor. The flamer has the ability to tank with shields or health, but my argument is that resistance is not useful if there is nothing to resist (mobs which die fast) or no gain in resistance (righteousness doesnt proc when used on bosses and if it did, that's only 1 armor per cast. the reason I like healing as an idea is that a flamer has a powerful skill which hurts him, and shatter is normally not enough (especially when shatter does not seem to heal from units stunned by faith)

    And that's what I am getting at, any skilled order "tanker" will tell you that they only use it [effectively] on EC
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Just to make idea creation easier, I think it should be mention that this proposed skill should be a passive.

    Given that shatter has synergy with vengeance (and all other stuns aside from faith), maybe keeping it as something that works with smite would be the right way to go.

    Healing may be out unless that's the kind of tank we want flamer to be, a heal tank.
  8. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    attack speed debuff maybe?
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Perhaps a Move speed Buff based on enemies hit?

    Or Maybe X energy restored per Y enemies hit.
  10. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    I agree entirely on it remaining passive, he has enough actives as is, I wouldn't change that, and working with smite is what everyone is generally leading toward, implying the community would want that as a whole (including me)
    There is a good argument to be had on if healing is a good idea at all for the said skill, but I am probably not well suited for that argument

    my biggest concern for these ideas is that they are too similar to frenzy, and the atk rate suggestion would not properly synergise with the order tree (movespeed would help kiting, especially since the enemy will already be slow)

    That is an interesting idea that I personally would agree with, but would be vehemently (and I mean vehemently) opposed to by just about everyone employed in the "balancing" sector. If they WOULD agree, it would be a very low amount of energy restored. It would probably be easier to make it where it costs lest to cast smite. An idea that randomly came from reading this will be posted on my thoughts line. The thought being increasing damage towards heroic (smite that is)
  11. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    I meant an attack speed debuff on targets hit by smite. Make it more useful versus slithers and bosses.
  12. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    That isn't a bad idea, the attack speed debuff would make smite more useful in close quarters, where a movespeed debuff is only useful on enemies not attacking you. it slowing attack speed on bosses is an ok idea, only issue coming back to my "big picture" of not tanking. I am also not sure how atk speed debuff would affect demeter as stuns don't stop the attacking. I must put less stress on usefulness against slithers because I must keep in mind that demeter has a tendency to stun even skilled flamer tanks
  13. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Instead of righteousness, make a passive skill for enemies stunned by hitting flamer gives +1 armor for 4/8 seconds, and heals for 2/4 HP
  14. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    My issue is that this is a tanky idea which utilizes a talent which relys on luck. And the enemies that were stunned would not be affected greatly by this buff because they would be stunned while the flamethrower had the armor. If one wanted to synergise with vengence, I would suggest increasing the duration of the stun, and perhaps the probability of a stun happening. As far as healing, it would be the opposite in usefulness as sadist, where if you killed everything, you would not benefit, and only if you got hit would it help (and ideally the onyl time flamer would be hit enough to truely benefit would be for demeter and chronos, demeter already being mentioned that the deadliness is more than just damage)

    I applaud the originality of the idea (in regards to order flamer) but I have to disagree. My suggestion made in this post will however make it on my list. With some edits
  15. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

  16. shadowbane

    shadowbane New Member

    X% of damaged shaved off by smite is regenerated in shields, shield armor is boosted by Y

    This easily allows for boss tanking or mob tanking with XS-4. For boss tanking, when boss hp gets low, you can easily switch to shatter for *more damage and also to gain hp from vengence/shatter and switch to RA or KA. Basically makes FT more of a shield armor tank if you wish to invest in righteousness and is easily complemented by medic's nano shield without being reliant on it.
  17. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    Sounds like fun, but I see 2 arguments which would probably say no to this idea.

    Shield tanking is a demo thing (therefore this would make flamer essentially play a lot like demo in regards of how it tanks)

    Invincible during first half of boss fight (or inversely, not helpful enough against mobs, depending on the size of X)

    I like shield tanking, don't get me wrong, but that's because I like demotanking
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I would actually have no problem with Righteousness granting bonus energy per unit hit. Something like 0.2/0.5. It would, in my opinion, actually make the Flamethrower much more difficult to play as a tank while making him more reasonable in terms of combat capability. He is, after all, the kiting tank.

    It raises a lot more problems than I'd care to deal with, though, so it's probably not going to happen. Righteousness is in that weird place where it could be better, but as it stands it's fine where it is (not unlike Saline IV). Righteousness helps keep the less experienced kids alive and allows the Flamethrower to be an effective tank when he needs to be, so I can't really condone replacing it.
  19. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    If that is what you feel kith, then I shall press less (always will press) for a change until everything else of high priority is taken care of.
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The problem is that there aren't going to be less issues with the more stuff we get finished. There's always going to be the same amount of issue with changing it. Like I said, it's exactly like Saline IV: there are indeed more lucrative replacements that will be more useful to veteran players, but that doesn't mean it's going to get changed. Righteousness has its place in the world, and that's something that we just gotta deal with.

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