MOTM & Tking

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Nicarco, Mar 14, 2012.

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  1. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    Yesssss.... Motm just got more op in recruit.
  2. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    RE: Leaver tk

    Nope. You'd be unable to target allies. MOTM would still carve a bloody swathe through your companions.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Leaver tk

    This. MOTM, once the system is properly implemented, will break all alliances for the duration of the ability, meaning that you will obliterate anything and everything. For the sake of convenience, it will also permastun units that you own (such as crawler drones or Devastators) so the sudden alliance change won't completely fuck you with your other units suddenly firing upon your allies. It's to discourage Attack-Moves and to actually make saving your allies from yourself a daunting task as opposed to what it is now.

    Edit: Keep in mind, this will not make your allies attack you. You will still be an ally to them.
  4. Nicarco
    • Warden
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    Nicarco Warden

    RE: Leaver tk

    I was basing it on the current system, which I believe doesn't implement this yet. I would also suggest however that, like I suggested on the BO board, that the technician randomly reacquires targets (by putting in stop commands) and having allies at higher priority so that they can't just attack move bosses (having different alliances doesn't mean much when attacking allies is queued after destroying the boss).
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Leaver tk

    Random stops A: take control away from the player (something that I violently oppose) and B: won't be necessary. Once the new system is implemented, stops will not be required because attack moving WILL auto-aquire other players. Players have a MUCH larger threat rating compared to bosses and other enemies, so the Technician will actually attack them first. So yeah, random stops are a no-go. They're necessary as of now due to how the current system works, but once we get the new one installed they will be unnecessary.
  6. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: Leaver tk

    If you say so kith. Seems like motm won't need the debuffs with the new system.
  7. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Leaver tk

    In theory.

    Let's see what happens in practice.
  8. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Leaver tk

    Well, we have to presume the reason that MotM didn't do this originally (Which was his intention) is because it was much easier/lazier to just do what they did for Full Moon on Bob. They already had it coded it was just some copy and paste onto the new model. Considering Laziness was the cause and reasoning for it being what it is now I can't imagine that it'd be changed.

    I can understand the desire to use a system you know and have already done, over having the rewrite it to achieve what might be considered a similar effect. But yeah. It does make using March on Bosses (Typically the only situation you really want to use it anyway) pretty much Easy Mode.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Leaver tk

    Fighting a single target has always been and always will be easy, no matter what we do to screw with players while using MOTM: Spam right click, problem solved. The point of the new system is to make players either use MOTM intelligently (never attack move, be very careful when fighting mobs) or conservatively (use it only for bosses, be very careful to control your actions when the boss is dead/nearing death).
  10. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    RE: Leaver tk

    Everyone off topic has been given a formal warning. Thread locked.
  11. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Leaver tk

    I got a better solution.

    Thread Split
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Just putting in my observations and perceptions on how things might go/are going. Do correct me if I get anything wrong.

    Having alliances broken by using MotM would make it a "right click on target and forget" weapon (With CB at least).

    Will require a refresh right click on target right after reloading if using a weapon that uses ammo.
    Easier to use which could be a good or bad thing depending on the user/eye of the beholder.

    Almost no different from the old system except the alleged attack move thing which as I understand from the contents of this thread, apparently made the talent too safe to use.

    However, if I remember correctly, attack moving was still overridden when the unit remade its cued targeting making A + left click to move still not so safe especially when holding a gun.

    I remember a certain Vet killing me that way. Back when the Barrett could still target and damage allies.

    Also not sure having it prioritize targeting allies fits in with the "AI is assuming direct control to be more efficient" as that would imply that there would be equal prioritizing of targets.

    Change the fluff maybe to something that prefers your fellow marines?
    Like maybe Apollo's resident AI having a hand in this?





    On the other hand, having the periodic "stop" commands with random cued targetting, while certainly requiring much more micro (albeit a crude form of micro in the form of clickathons/use of click macros... yet again lol)
    would also not fit in with the fluff of being more "efficient by the power of AI" and more in line with (to quote a fellow player) "balls-out-crazy". So again, fluff change? :)
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    A space marine in power armor wielding a gauss rifle is infinitely more dangerous than a sick colonist with unclipped nails and tattered clothes. A fine gameplay translation of this concept exists in Survival, in which case marines and marksmen come for your ass and if you're not on high ground where you're able to shoot them first, you get destroyed.

    So, no, there doesn't need to be a fluff adjustment. The players having a massive threat rating compared to the infested makes sense, and an AI program from a period where something like HAL can exist can easily make that distinction.

    Yes, the Crowbar is fantastic for MotM, but the fact remains that you are massively gimping yourself because you're using a melee weapon. Two of Apollo Sec's six bosses are airborne, arguably the most dangerous ones because of their unpredictable nature and powerful minions. Athena cannot be tanked. The only bosses that the MotM Crowbar is useful against are Hades and Hephaestus, both of which are in entirely separate storylines. I leave Deimos out because it's highly unlikely (even with 5 infestors, Charlie, and CP) that the Mods Tech will have March of the Machine by that point.

    We do not need to fuck with the player, and we do not need to take control away from them. NOTD is about proper micro, and deliberately taking away the ability to micro properly OR throwing random chance into the mix is bad design. I cannot stress this enough. A MotM Tech will immediately turn and attack the other players if the target he was attacking dies, and the Crowbar is only viable against a handful of bosses. MotM with the new targeting system will be fine. People who know what they're doing will make use of it, and those who don't know what they're doing will underestimate it and get their teammates killed.
  14. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Do read it again sir.

    Didn't say anything about CB being the only thing MotM could be used with. Was only saying it's still the only safe weapon to be lazy with.

    Especially the priorities part, gun usage with MotM, which as you know is the true way to utilize the talent as it was with Bob and will be one of the main concerns with the talent.

    Red freakish mutation with enough armor to shrug most conventional firepower which could cleave a (as mentioned) high priority human with gun in half simply by flicking them how much priority would the AI give those?

    Or a flying Satellite system that fires an ever intensifying laser.

    Or yet another giant flying mass of maim and kill which makes is effectively invulnerable (if you don't know its admittedly fantastical mechanic)

    Or the other pretty much invulnerable beastie which rapes anything close to it.

    Or even huge lumbering massively HPed masses of claws that charge at you.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    And I didn't insinuate that's what you meant. What I said was that the Crowbar, being the only "safe" option, is okay, considering that it massively gimps your offensive capabilities.

    Probably less because A: it doesn't have a gun and B: it's a stupid monster, so it can be outsmarted (see: kited)

    That we don't actually fight directly.

    It still doesn't have a gun.

    Not seeing a gun.

    I lack sight of an implement that can fire dangerous projectiles.

    No matter what happens, humans will always be more dangerous than the infestation's beasts. Why? Because humans are smart. Humans can make sense of terminals, make traps, and wield weapons. The smarter something gets, the infinitely more dangerous it becomes. Yes, the beasts of Apollo are more physically imposing, but if you stay out of their reach they are incapable of hurting you. Humans, however, have guns. Y'know, "reach out and touch someone". They don't actually have to be anywhere near you to kill your ass, and a bullet through a motherboard is going to effectively kill any computer. So yes, in terms of straight self preservation, an AI is going to rank any human higher than a beast, unless there are safeguards in place specifically telling the AI that certain humans are not threats to it and therefore not targets. This is covered in the lore (and even in the skill description), as the AI routine is written by the Technician himself and therefore is imperfect and lacks proper target distinction.
  16. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I meant Nazara here btw
  17. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    This is getting annoying. We get it, MOTM is changing. It will be different, different is scary.

    This is no less an argument and more an internet dick measuring contest.

    I'll reopen this thread later. Maybe.
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