Moar demo synergeh.

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by squish, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I'm not suggesting something radical. just a minor change.
    If a target has fire vulnerability applied (either through HE ammo or fv) FV lvl 1 and HE ammo: Sap does 100 single target damage, FV lvl 2; Sap does 200 single target damage, wherein target explodes 2 seconds later, dealing 50/100 damage in 2 radius, with 50% FF.
  2. Tink

    Tink New Member

    I don't mind this, if the explosion isn't an insta-kill on the unit, or only happens if the unit is killed by sap.
    It'll certanly bring more use to sap.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So, what do you suggest Sap do with the Fortitude tree?
  4. Tink

    Tink New Member

    Maybe when combined with Look/taunt sap doesn't break when target takes damage.
    Or when used with taunt/look it increases demo shield armor
  5. Froblock

    Froblock Well-Known Member

    Suggesting sap deal 100 - 200 dmg is pretty radical.
    That's like giving the Demo a tier 2 level 1 osok, except that sap is an available ability at lvl 1

    It should do something like 50 dmg for sap.
    It should be effected by level 1 Fire Vuln by increasing 50 dmg to sap. (100 dmg)
    Then level 2 Fire Vuln by another 50 dmg. (150)

    However with HE ammo added on, im not sure how much dmg sap would do, but nothing exceeding 200 dmg would be alright.
  6. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    But then, you'd have to buy HE, or either way still get T2 and would encourage more people to get FV instead of satchel plus it would give demo a single target ability in Explo that he lacks.
    And for fortitude, Add synergy with Look!
    When a zombie is sapped, look it, and instantly cause all mobs within 3 radius to attack said target, but out of 3 radius, it works normally. How's that?
  7. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    should include a minor energy cost increase on Sap
  8. Eagle 11

    Eagle 11 Well-Known Member

    Now ill bring up an ancient issue:
    Why should you even pick Explosives over TTD ?

    Why Mines and Create Mines are not merged into 1 skill ?
    So the 2. can be an skill that grants different types of mines. Create mines will become a seperate menu like Engi's build tower sub-menu. This sub-menu is immediately available upon putting 1 point in Lay mines. There you will be able to switch between types on first row and create them in 2. row. Recycle mine skill is also here at 3. row 1. button. Keep in mind that you will able to create and use only 1 type of mine at a time because how the lay mine skill's container works. As for what is being merged into Lay mines is the build-amount per click. Ill call the second skill 'Mine Expertise' for now,a fluffy name could be found later if wanted.
    The choices on mines could include:
    First is the normal. Which comes initially with Lay mines 1.
    AT mine: Blows only when a massive goes over it and slows down massive if target survives that. Deals more dmg than normal ofcourse since its blowing only on massive and costs more energy to produce. Its size in the container is also bigger resulting in few being able to carried around. Available to construct and use with Mine expertise 1. You may have realized this is similar to Engi's Plasma Satchel. Thats because i always thought meddling with different types of explosives should be Demo's work.
    Napalm: Deals 2/3 dmg of normal mine but has an nice afterburn effect. Available with Mine expertise 2.
    Hightech-EMP: Costs high,Size in container is even bigger than AT-mine. Thats because this mine is unburrowed and can be comandeered around. This one comes with an inherent EMP ability that stuns mechanical upon detonation. However because of the space that remote control mechanism took in its construction it has to be detonated manually. As for how much dmg it does think of it as a 'mini-satchel'. This becomes available to use with Mine expertise 3. I realize that this one is rather a remote-controlled bomb-drone than a mine but nothing better comes at my mind atm :p

    The major purpose of all this work would be to turn the Explo demo into fun-to-play class that actively participates in the combat instead awaiting for an dps-fail so a satchel worthy horde can be seen coming or some ghoul runs into your mine so you can actually kill something with your mine(speaking of higher diff. games here)

    If i may further:
    Fire Vulnerability shouldnt be an AoE cast. It could become an Pseudo-passive that increases the dmg of anything explosive that belongs to activating demo player has on the map for duration when activated. Note that it will no longer be an team buff this way but an intelligent demo could been very helpful to his team this way.

    As for what Engi can get instead plasma satchel: The Sap itself! This will give the Field Support to choose between kite(Field Probe) or stun (Sap) in first tier.
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I can't recall of the demolitions reworks that tried to merge Create & Lay mines.

    I still don't know why it hasn't been done.
  10. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    I'm sure the likelihood of laying mines and building mines being the same talent will increase as the FO rework is finished
  11. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    Since when did "Demolitions" ever mean single target damage? It's always struck me as a "Get the fuck away! *BOOM*" kinda thing.
  12. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    Demo/FO/chem all are for mob control, Demolitions was never a single target damage, that's the marksman.
  13. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Opcomm + Flamer + FV. Nuff said.
  14. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    +1
  15. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying the demo needs to BE single target. I'm saying he needs to have a single target ability for that troll stalker/devo that occasionally comes along. Precision shot.. OSOK... KMS... am I makin' any sense here?
    [hr]
    I also suggest this in the way of a Demo rework:
    Only Tier one of the explosives tree to be changed
    Mine replicators (Gives 2 abilities, Create mines, lay mines this is create and mines in one package, these talents remain unchanged)
    Installing Spider Mine replicators to his suit, the Demolitionist is able to Create and plant "Spider" Anti personnel mines at his own discretion, with this set
    Plant mines: Mines installed do 40/60/80 base damage
    Create mines: Creats 2/4/6 mines with a cost of 20/25/30 energy <(This part's to reduce the pain the demo feels for making mines early on) with a max of 15/30/45 charges


    The new part:

    Shaped charges (Passive): The demolition has incorporated an AI into his explosives, allowing them to read IFF tags and selectively shape the charge so that the shrapnel will not impact them as much.
    Level: (1/2/3): Mines do 25/50/75% reduced friendly fire, with Satchels doing 20/40/60% reduced friendly fire, and Armageddon Detonation does 30/60/90% reduced friendly fire, also extending an aura of nanites in a 5 radius that will infect and similarly modify allied explosions no matter where they're placed at. Stinger missiles will do 50% further reduced damage at level 3. L3 will deal only 10 damage to friendlies per charge no matter what, at level 3. Nukes will dole out a grand total of 300 damage at level 3 to a target, making it possible to avoid nuking and KILLING (but still severely injuring) your tank. If a flamethrower unit happens to perish and become a blaze of glory, 40% reduced boom damage to friendlies. HOWEVER, burning damage (napalm, flamethrower, etc) will not be affected in any way. This will also affect the forward observer artillery and air strikes if he's within the 5 radius area (not shown, but buff card will be in place @ level 3 shaped charges for friendlies, always for self) FO artillery will impact allies with 50% less damage @ level 3 shaped. FO Airstrikes will impact with 40% less damage with level 3 shaped. I'm open to questions/comments/feedback (CONSTRUCTIVE, no FUCK YOU SQUISH IT SUCKS) and concerns. Once again, napalm such as flamer's burning fire after the explosion of his death, napalm shells, flamethrower mk-3 and the armageddon's burning effect will all be unaffected. this is for the BOOM part of everything only.
  16. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    So wait... Mines which are already hard to TK with become a joke, and Satchels which are no longer lethal towards allies, also become a joke. You get the liberty to Stinger people, and you no longer have to worry TKing people with skills that require some thought, essentially making it idiot proof.

    Just no. If anything, the Friendly Fire damage should remain the same as it the damage, but it was reduced to the point where you had to be intentionally trying to kill someone. FO should know better then try to Air strike / Artillery strike your team.

    All it does is reduce the skill level required to play the game. It is terrible. Commando is a high exp class. If your commando can't nuke worth shit, he shouldn't be nuking near the team.

    "FUCK YOU SQUISH IT SUCKS" because it only dumb downs Demolitions, Forward Observer and Commando. It is a wasted skill point for people who figured out explosives shouldn't be placed on your team, and only serves to reduce the required amount of skill to play those classes.
  17. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Ah... no.
    Satchels can still one hit team kill. I did it just last game to a medic who tried to run but got blown the fuck up anyways. mines can still kill if people are retarded. same thing for nukes, despite the huge fucking BOOM indicator. I also managed to kill a person with my mines last game too.
    [hr]
    Under this new patch, mines are FULL friendly fire. I had 3 level 3 mines break my shields, do 60 damage to my health, and give me short circuit and cripple as demolitions so... yeah.
  18. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    You clearly need to be more careful then.

    Satchels were "buffed" in the sense that their FF damage was reduced.

    Armageddon does jack shit to TKing people as well, unless you stay inside of it, and even then, I don't see how you end up killing them.

    Of course, all things need to be fixed, but unless this was all ninja changed deliberately by Ability, Demolitions Demolitionist has a hard time TKing intentionally.

    And furthermore, everything that was a problem for Demolitions, is cured by common sense and simple thought.

    Your proposal is effectively saying "lets use skills with less consequence"

    Firewalls and Satchels were scary shit. Near the end of Fire Wall's time, I stood inside of it without a damn, and hardly took damage. I also got satcheled a few times (and lived), and have tanked an Armageddon or two, as a non-tank class.

    I haven't read anything about Demo's Satchels, Armageddon, and Spider Mines being reverted back to full TK mode. If the patch is the cause, well guess what. Bug Report!

    Common sense and thinking don't appear to be in use. If you're TKing people, either you have bad placement, don't properly communicate, or are using it at the wrong time, or shouldn't be using that class. The skill tree of a class shouldn't be changed just because one person can't use it right.
  19. Arcelia

    Arcelia New Member

    Mines have like -25% (-20 damage at level 3) damage to Heroics...
    That means they don't do their full damage to friendly marines and predators!
  20. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Ohhhhh really?
    [attachment=1447]
    When will people learn to stop contradicting everything I say?
    And before you go making a further idiot of yourself... I killed both Zeus and Leto at the same time with mines, along with erebos 1. would've had ere2 but he fucking blackholed those mines.
    Ask DERT, Kithrixx and Robomonkey how OP mines are at their current state because of 1.5. I broke my 110 shields as demo with one (1) level 1 satchel. Robo and DERT both will tell you that.

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