Misconception about flamer damage...

Discussion in 'Archive' started by ChuckWing, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Nothing in life can be confirmed, but from the evidence we've seen the flamethrower is most likely hitting twice. The data I collected and Niktos' experiments with stacking adrenaline are there. Draw your own conclusions from it. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on my hypothesis because the evidence is strong enough to support it.
  2. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I don't think there's a real measurable difference between 18x1 and 9x2
  3. David

    David Well-Known Member

    There really isn't. So we combine the data with the theory of the game mechanics and take what's easier to swallow:

    1) The flamethrower is broken and shoots 18 flames on a rock and 14 flames on the queen (exceeding the mechanics of 12 flames max)


    2) The flamethrower is broken and shoots 9 x 2 flames on a rock and 7x2 on the queen (preserving the mechanics of 12 flames max)

    Factor in -> AP gave the theoretical maximum number of flames that could hit an agron (4) and queen based on their unit sizes. Reality shows the damage is doubled, so to preserve the math of the game values it is easier to assume an agron is getting hit by 4 flames twice rather than 8 flames (which should be theoretically impossible).

    Based on what we know, 2 seems more palatable.
  4. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I didn't see AP's post, which confirms what I was thinking actually happens and apparently was said many times in the thread before.

    I think it's 18x2, unless SC2 uses silly measurements for radius and weapon range.

    AP says it hits every 0.25, so push that out to 4.65 and you've got approx 18 hits. I would expect that increasing and reducing this range doesn't actually increase the number of hits, but does indeed bring the hits closer together. It would be good for someone to try to hit a rock with FMJ on up close and far away with adrenaline on. If you can get 2 FMJ that should give you all 36 hits up close.


    Here's each hit up to 10, with the radius of:
    Civilian (0.1875 radius, 1-2 hits)
    Zombie (0.3125 radius, 1-2 hits)
    Infestor (0.375 radius unburrowed, 2-3 hits)
    Agron (0.6875 radius, 3-4 hits)
    Tartarus (0.6875 radius, 3-4 hits)
    Queen (1.6875 radius, 7-8 hits)
    Seth (1.6875 radius, 7-8 hits)

    Looks like rocks are bigger than the queen and flamer hits twice (all units or just targeted unit?). Infestors are also tiny unburrowed and enormous burrowed (7.5 radius). I couldn't find the default rock radius online, and I don't feel like trying to find it in the editor. Can't find stalker either.

    Expected damage on queen is 16*(8+(5-3-3)/3)=123 per attack (128 @ 8 damage)
    Expected damage on agron is 8*(8+(5-3-3)/3)=61 per attack (64 @ 8 damage)
    Expected damage on tartarus is 8*(8+(5-3-3)/3)=61 per attack (64 @ 8 damage)
    Expected damage on seth is 16*(8+(-3-3)/2)=80 per attack
    Expected damage on zombie is 4*(8+(5))=52 per attack (matches perfectly)

    I think it's more likely that the +5 -3 -3 damage is just rounded down to 0, so queen gets 16*8 for 128 damage, and she healed 2 point when David measured it. The agron taking 72 damage is strange though, but that matches up if it somehow took 9 damage.
  5. David

    David Well-Known Member

    So you think there are 18 flames because of AP saying the stream is made of overlapping .25 increments?

    I personally would still take the simplest explanation that the rock is being hit 9 times twice. You make a bold claim based off a tidbit of theory that's not fully explained (but kudos for running with it). However, along that line of thinking the next question is how do the .25 increments go together to make the 12 flames that we all believe to be true? Are there more than 12 flames? I don't believe Niteshade made such a basic error when figuring out how the flamethrower works. I'm sticking to his 12 flames max.

    Regardless, the answer to the question really has left the realm of practicality. The onus is on you to prove your theory, I've already done my homework and showed it.

    Things you need to consider:

    -FMJs do not change the flamethrower projectile range or size at all, just target acquisition range -- the one inch punch is a myth, so your experiment won't work
    -Damage is calculated using the average between the highest and lowest classifications, the old-world method of calculating combined damage no longer applies
    -Starcraft only rounds the final damage value, it wouldn't make such a gross rounding error as you're suggesting
    -Agrons take 9 damage a flame (I have a screenshot of a single flame doing 9 damage to an agron, and the variability due to different amount of flames hitting changes the damage by increments of 9)
    -My data is accurately collected, the queen regenerated nothing, none of your numbers match reality (except for the zombie)
  6. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    for the 12 flames.
    each flame ends up at approx 0.3875 accoring to niteshade. if nth changed the flames to be reduced in size then its still 12 flames. if they are reduced in size to pure 0.25 size it fits 18 in there. or better 17,5
  7. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member


    We already proved niteshade was wrong. 12 hits seems like a large number for a big unit. Niteshade also says 12 is the max, when we've clearly shown it hits 14 times on queen at least.

    -that's why it's an experiment
    -damage calculation makes no sense
    -tartarus and agrons are identical in size. If agrons take (8+(5-3)/2) damage then the queen should too, and my numbers match yours.
    -If I use the correct damage calculation all of my numbers match reality

    Not sure why the hell you can get an odd number of hits.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I remember trying the One Inch Punch. There was effectively no difference in DPS aside from the attack speeds.

    Although, I'm sure you'll all be happy to know - the NOTD 2 Flamethrower will function exactly as the NOTD Flamethrower is rumored to (12 projectiles, more damage the closer you get, reduced range makes the flames cluster together, ect).
  9. David

    David Well-Known Member

    If it hits 14 times on the queen it's not doing x2 damage. And you would be looking at a 18x1 instead of 18x2 like you claim.

    What do you mean "that's why it's an experiment" ? I'm telling you why your experiment won't work because of a fundamental flaw in its construction (Kithrixx explained it and I've also tested it)
    We figured out how to calculate damage, it does make sense. What specifically do you mean?
    Agrons and Tart do take the same damage so yes the queen should take the same damage per flame.
    All your numbers match mine? great so you've proven to yourself that the real world date I collected fits theory, which I already proved. What now?

    We draw a conclusion that either the units sizes are x2 bigger or that the flamethrower does x2 damage. Obviously we choose the latter. Following this logic no unit is big enough to ever take more than 8x2 (except maybe the rock) therefore this conversation no longer has any practical application.

    However from a pure theoretical point of view and the sake of knowing the truth. You need to convince us that the flamethrower shoots 18 flames...let alone x2 damage with 18 flames. Dividing 4.65/.25 to get 18 sure as hell isn't enough. The question that needs to be answered is how did Niteshade come up with 12? and was it correct? I feel like only someone with access to the map can answer the question, *cough* AP.
  10. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    alrdy explaiend how niteshade came up with 12.
    as AP said the flames are 0.25 big with a 0,15 searcheffect that overlaps a bit with the next one. so instead of 0,4 length per flame its 0.3875.
  11. David

    David Well-Known Member

    So slightly overlapping increments of 0.4 to create a flame length of 0.3875. Works for me. I'm sticking to 12 flames. Thanks for the clarification.
  12. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member


    Also, holy shit I'm stupid. I forgot about the difference between a radius and a diameter. Of freaking course it doesn't double tap... There's 18 flames (maybe 19?) each hitting once. The flames are spaced apart 0.25 from each other and the circles have a diameter of 0.30. A unit has to be smaller than 0.20 to only get hit once, but sometimes twice, and that is civs and a few other tiny units. They're also very likely to be in the range of two flames. I can't believe I missed that.


    Earlier in this thread damage calculation was proved to be different by you, or so I thought. I still don't understand how damage is calculated or why it is calculated in that way.

    You have to prove the mechanism. You have to take real world data to create the mechanism, that's all there is to it.

    I actually choose the former, because when I did my calculations, I was stupidly using the radius instead of the diameter. I still don't know how long the flames actually are, or what adding 1 to the range of the flamer actually does. Does a range 6.65 flamer actually hit anything at max distance? (yes).
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Yes? :3
  14. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    somehow your one inch punch led people to believe that the dps skyrocketed, which you now refute.
  15. David

    David Well-Known Member

    18x2...18x1? Make up your mind. AP already said the flamethrower will only hit an agron for a max of 4 flames. He described the flamethrower mechanics being .25 increments + .15 search effect range for approximately ~0.40 range per flame. So you think AP is wrong also about the game mechanics. The irony is that he is the one that pulled a Leonardo Dicaprio in Inception and placed this 0.25 number in your dream somewhere.

    I really don't understand what basis you run on these 0.25 increment flames, your obsession with SC1 starcraft-lurker mechanics, and why you're running down such a radical path because of a single post AP made that you most likely misunderstood. You could be right, AP could be wrong, that's fine. Prove it.

    I'll leave you to your mental masturbation and chasing fairies just please don't start spreading misinformation until you've proven it. I appreciate an inquisitive and theoretical mind but for all your talk you show very little to substantiate any of the creative ideas you come up with. Prove to me these fairies exist instead of just talking about it. Good luck to you. Who knows maybe you'll figure out what this "half a flame hitting" thing is all about.
  16. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately he didn't say how he got that number.
    No he didn't. Where did you get 0.4 from?
    There are no half flames.

    I would test more, but testing on this map and in sc2 in general is incredibly tedious.
  17. David

    David Well-Known Member

    You're right about AP's post, he doesn't say how he got the number 4, and I misinterpreted the rest of it. He says the search effect increments happen at 0.25 with 0.15 search effect radius. After re-reading AP's post it does seem like he refers to them as 0.25 increments (not added to make 0.4). We still don't know how Niteshade got the number 12.

    I'm more inclined to believe there are no "half-flames" either, hence why I put them in quotes.

    Yes. testing is incredibly tedious.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I would say a 45% increase in attack speed is a pretty good example of something's DPS skyrocketing.
  19. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    Here's my raw data taken with a commando with 4 weapon mods and fmjs. I attacked the Colonist Transport (APC) and the same rock Niktos did.

    Range Hits APC Hits Rock
    5.58 3 4
    5.35 4 5
    5.12 5 6
    4.88 6 7
    4.65 6 8
    4.42 7 9
    4.18 7 10
    3.95 7 11
    3.72 7 11
    2.42 - 17
    2.18 - 18
    1.95 - 18

    I believe when attacking, you target the edge of the inner radius of the unit and hit the outer radius of the unit with splash. However, I have no way of opening the map to find out the exact sizes of stationary attackable units, so I'm ready to give up. I guess that the APC is the size of an Agron at 0.6875 with an inner radius of 0.34375 and the rock is 2.0 with inner radius of 1.5

    I theorize that there's 24 flames total, but until I know the point of attack, I can't prove that number at all, and my numbers only work out if the point of attack is further out from the center of the unit. If it were at the center, the rock would be being hit much more than it is at max range. There's definitely at least 19 attacks, since I've hit at point blank range for 18 and 19 hits on the rock.

    This doesn't really follow for the flamethrower unit upgrades though, since adding +2 range with the talent seems to change the number or spread the flame further apart. At range 6.65, I was still hitting the colonist ship twice, but at 7.65 (6.65 + 3 mods), I only did 1-2 damage to it. Level 3 flamer probably doubles the radius of the attack and likely increases the distance in between flames, but I haven't done any testing on this.
  20. Lolurisk

    Lolurisk Member

    you should do some tests with the flamethrower (class) involving his +3 range to see if the data helps at all

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