Misconception about flamer damage...

Discussion in 'Archive' started by ChuckWing, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    The item is just as much a liability as it is an asset because of the skill needed from the player in order to make the weapon achieve that potential. Bad players use it poorly. Good players make it seem broken.
  2. Lolurisk

    Lolurisk Member

    hehe ops mando flamer with HE (laser works nicely too XD)
  3. bunny

    bunny Member

    Pretty funny how only 1 guy in the community had a firm grasp on how damage actually works.

    There are a ton of things that are not said at all in game and must be specifically looked up. Some cannot be found anywhere to my knowledge. Be careful about believing some guy just because it seems like he knows what he's talking about.

    Misconceptions spread extremely easily actually. About 4 months ago some guy went around saying that RA was the best armor to use for demeter. I believed him because he had 6x my XP and I didn't argue at all. Less than a month ago there were still people who believed that and tried to tell me it. At some point I compared the armor descriptions and looked and demeter's damage. I thought to myself why the hell would anyone use RA for this?

    Same thing happened with some vet telling me that UA420 was straight up better than m5. I was brand new and believed him for quite awhile until some other vet told me that I was an idiot.
  4. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    Things change over time and some people are much slower to adapt to certain changes than others.
  5. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    There was a time when RA was the only thing that made sense for Demeter. There was a time when HK was better than pulse in pretty much every way. Most of the "real vets" (myself included) are just people who used to be good at NOTD trying to relive their glory days and giving advice that was accurate a year ago and is completely wrong now.
  6. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I'm pretty sure no changes ever happened to them after they were implemented, though I may have gaps in my memory, but M5 and HK always had their current damage loss per point of armor.

    Unless you're referring to the animation change of M5 from Wraith Gemini Ground Laser to Scout Photon Blasters, in which case, I will say that M5 sucked for the same reason Laser Rifle did (target dying during the flight of the missile), so HK was superior to M5 (in my opinion) prior to that animation change. With the animation change, M5 was much better.

    The one concern I have about HE Ammunition and Flamethrowers.

    Does the HE Ammunition effect apply before the Flamethrower's damage effect?

    I know that successive projectiles from the flame would indeed, feel the effect of the HE ammunition, but would the first projectile of the flamethrower have the benefit of Fire vulnerability or not?

    i.e. Order of application of effects / buffs.

    Case 1:
    Flamer damage dealt, then Fire Vulnerability (from HE Ammo) applied.

    Case 2:
    Fire Vulnerability applied, then Flamer damage dealt.

    If it is Case 1, HE Ammunition does nothing for a Commando using Nuclear Strike, because the Nuclear Strike damage would not receive Fire Vulnerability's 50% increased damage thus, HP Ammunition or AP Ammunition would be better than HE ammunition for a Nuking Commando.
  7. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    In the case of HE, it is case 2, but in a sort of weird way. /TECHNICAL DETAIL BEGIN

    The HE Ammo, along with a few other effects, are buffs that have a Damage response. This response is part of a behavior and fires when the Buffed unit takes or receives damage (depending on how it is configured). The interesting thing is that Damage Responses happen when damage is start, but damage is dealt AFTER the damage response is completed. This is how I recoded Critical Strikes, it now has a damage response that places a buff on the enemy, which also has a damage response (and will respond to that same damage event) that multiples the damage by 2x.


    Ok 2nd Edit: It works the way I thought I did, and stinger for instnace is dealing 500+ damage with HE Equipped, but nuke for some reason is not working as intended, time to fix :p
  8. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Cough... Jake.... cough cough.
  9. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    I feel like your numbers are off here. Seth is Psionic and has 5 armor.
    UA GPR
    [(12+4 armored)+(12+4 massive)+(12-4 psionic)]/3 - 5 = 8.3
  10. bunny

    bunny Member

    now, what did we say about not averaging?

    (12+4+4-4) - 5 = 11 is the way to do it if i understand AP correctly.
    and this is consistent with his spreadsheet (as mentioned earlier): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlRUGSAC_MCGdF9zX1ZIUEx3el95bC10akpnMmZBR1E#gid=4

    I would like to point out that this spreadsheet is actually awesome and amazingly useful. It has it all down to the dps with various types of reloads. Just about everything you could possibly want to calculate is already done here and done correctly. It does not reflect flamethrower very well, but otherwise it shows which weapons should be used on each target.

    Also keep in mind that this assumes single targets and does not represent splash. For example, it shows that shotty and flamethrower have some of the worst dps on zombie eggs, but we all know that it is silly to use anything else (except crowbar ofc). This makes the spreadsheet most relevant for bosses, but still gives a good general idea as to what is useful when.
  11. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    now what did we say about THE GAME IS AVERAGING^^ the sheet is not correct. we (chuck, niktos and me) did multiple testruns with diff weapons and with/without weaponsmods etc. the game calculates the avg damage and only uses modifers that affect your gun. seth is affected by massive, armored, and psionic. thats 16 for armored and massive and 8 for psionic. so you end up doing 13,33 dmg per shot reduced by 5 armor to 8,33 dmg per shot.
  12. bunny

    bunny Member

    I'm looking for the answer in this thread, but I just want to see credible source or reference, not just "well it seems like this would work". I figured AP had found it, but I guess I need to see where he got it.

    It could be that the method for this is not hardcoded into the game. It might be either way depending on what the map uses or defaults to. I haven't tried programming a map so I don't know.

    Edit: Re-read his post, seems pretty clear as I mention below.
  13. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

  14. bunny

    bunny Member

    Yes, and then later AP made his post about how damage is calculated in SC2 and said nothing about averaging. I feel rather inclined to believe the map developer if it comes down to that.

    He says there are 3 ways to calculate it, and none of those are averaging. He then says that NOTD uses the combined method based upon armor classification and shows how it is done.
    Where the hell did the averaging method come from? Did someone just pull it out of their ass? I haven't found anything about it.
  15. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Under the "combined" the Agron should have taken 29 damage, not 19 damage.

    810 - 19 = 791 (Value shown in screenshot)
    810 - 29 = 781

    So, I'm inclined to believe that damages are averaged. I have no method of contradicting the argument for them being averaged aside from "because XYZ said so."
  16. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Ok, did a bit of checking and reviewing, need to revise a few things.

    1) Maximum damage means the game simply takes the highest attribute bonus it can do, and ignores the rest. So for example, if I had a weapon that did +2 to Light, +4 to Armored and +6 to Heroic, and it hit a Light Armored Heroic unit, it would deal +6 damage. Minimum damage is the same, execept if finds the lowest bonus, so in my example, there would be +2 damage. With combined, it would add them all as expected, so for my example, it would deal + (2 + 4 + 6) = + 12 damage.

    2) For whatever insane reason, the weapons in the map got reset somehow and are currently using Maximum damage. This would then explain the UA420 damage against an agron being 19, since it would be 15 + (highest attribute bonus, so 7) - (3 * 0.7) (Since the UA420 damage is reduced by 0.7 per point of armor, but it rounds in this case) for a final result of 19. No averaging, just a plain stupid bug that I never noticed. So this will be fixed next patch, and should clear up this issue.
  17. David

    David Well-Known Member

    I didn't take into consideration psionic. So yes my number is off.
  18. rockz
    • Donator

    rockz Well-Known Member

    According to AP, you were actually right, but for the wrong reasons.
  19. bunny

    bunny Member

    So, now that AP cleared everything up, would I be correct in saying that laser rifle does way more dps to the queen than flamethrower? Even with all 12 flames hitting, it appears that the dps still doesn't compare to laser.
    If this is true, then why to people still claim flamethrower has better dps against Eos than laser?

    If you tell me flamethrower still does more damage ill believe you, but the numbers don't make sense.
  20. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member

    20 armor, bio, armored, massive, psio, hero

    AER138 Laser Rifle
    13 damage, -1 armor reduction, 0.26 attack speed, 3.3 reload speed
    Plain DPS for Eos = (13/0.26)+20(armor) = 70

    Flamethrower MK-3
    8 damage per flame (max 12 flame), 0 armor reduction, 1.15 attack speed, 4.5 reload speed
    +5 to bio, +2 to light, -3 to both armored and massive
    Plain DPS for Eos = ((12+5-3-3)/1.15)x12* = 114.78 *given if all 12 flame hits

    Plainly without weap mods,skills,buffs etc., Flamethrower can have higher DPS compared to Laser Rifle.

    People prefer flamerthrower due to the fact it is much more easier to reload. Although reload speed of flamethower is higher than laser rifle, on the Ops Mando hand with Lvl3 Adrenaline on, Laser rifle peak attack speed is 0.26/2.8 = 0.09, which is quite impossible to golden reload at that speed. Flamethrower peak attack speed is 1.15/2.8 = 0.41, which last 4.5 times longer before reload and 4.5 times easier to golden reload as well.

    If you are saying blue reload about 10-15 ammo left, you are pretty much wasting more time on reloading rather than DPSing because you have to reload the laser rifle every 4-5 sec + 1-2 sec blue reload speed(3.3/1.8). Missing one/getting white reloads would be disastrous.

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