Misconception about flamer damage...

Discussion in 'Archive' started by ChuckWing, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    Well doesnt need to be changed, necessarily since only a good demo mando combo will pull it off and the mando isnt afraid to get close while demo keeps taunt up.
    but yea dmg calcs are kinda diff now, thou it seems some of my calcs get close to what i see ingame.
  2. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Ok me and Ons tested a couple more things on seth. I took off damage mods and perception. Bar did 175 to seth which means david is right and its only factoring in the classifications that affect the gun damage and not all of them. The weird thing tho is that the shotty was doing 130 damage per shot. Was smm and stopped pickin talents after 3 qa, and again no damage mods or perception. 35 base damage + 35 massive - 5 for armor debuff should be 65, yet somehow it kept hitting for double that at 130 each shot. Maybe this is somehow connected to flamer doing unnecessarily high damage against seth as well?
  3. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    i think zippy the shotgun hits targets esp massives double. since i tend to see double red digits if crit over its head. not 1 crit but 2 per shot. maybe rename the thread into: funny things you did not know about guns and how we break the game with them
  4. David

    David Well-Known Member

    It's funny nobody knows the shotgun does x2 damage to EVERYTHING and x4 with crit. 65X2 = 130. The math is spot on. There's a reason it's the best weapon in the game and why I said a fully adrenalined commando with shotgun, and proper stacking will annihilate Seth.
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton


    You're a goof. The Shotgun does not deal 2x damage to everything, just targets large enough to be in the overlapping AOE templates. Smaller targets such as Ghouls, Zombies, and others do not take double damage.

    But it's a wash anyways, considering that it packs sufficient damage to kill them in a single hit regardless.
  6. David

    David Well-Known Member

    A single regular zombie will take double damage 100 percent of the time. If a single regular zombie is big enough to be in "overlapping AOE templates" then practically every unit in the game is. Don't make me provide evidence please. I've already wasted too much time parsing gun damage for this game.
  7. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Devils in the details as always.

    1) Damage in Starcraft 2 can be calculated 3 ways, based on the Armor Classification of the target: Minimum (it takes the lowest damage possible), Maximum (takes the highest damage possible) and Combine (combine all modifications).

    If we take the GPR as an example, hitting a psionic armored unit, will do 8 damage under Minimum (12 - 4 for psionic), 16 under maximum (12 + 4 for armored), and under Combined it will deal 12 (12 + 4 for armored - 4 for psionic). NOTD uses Combined for all weapons wielded by players.

    This is purely for the initial damage calculation based on armor types. These can be flat value bonuses or % based (which NotD does not use). Then armor is used to affect the damage, which each damage type can specify how much damage is reduced per 1 point of armor (for example, the laser has this at -1, and many weapons have this set to 0, like HMG and Barret).

    2) The shotgun does not have overlapping damage templates, BUT, more importantly, it INCLUDES the target in the AoE Search. This means it will do the full shotgun damage to the target of the attack, and then proceeds to do a search around the target, with lesser damage the farther out. The innermost ring/aoe does full damage. This means that the target of the attack is taking 2x the shotguns damage. However I do not know if the target is excluded from the other damage searches (there are 3, 2nd one does 1/2 damage, outermost one does 1/4). So I would need to test, but it is possible the direct target of shotgun attacks is taking 2.75 the damage stated, so yes, normal zombie will always die to a DIRECT attack by shotgun. Although I may have contradicted myself by saying no overlapping templates, my current understanding is that units damaged in the 1st search listed for an AOE is excluded from the remaining searches, to prevent the contradictory part of a unit being hit over and over by the same damage effect.

    3) Flamethrower is a very very unique situation, and because of how it is made and what it is based on is the reason range modifications at this time do nothing to its actual range. What it does is create an effect that spawns effects at various offsets directly in front of the caster. This leads to the multiple "projectiles". Each of these spawned effects do the damage effect in a small circle aoe, giving the appearance of line damage. The Flamethrower is based off the Hellion weapon of SC2, but it has the effects configured such that a unit can only be affected once by a damage effect per attack. NOTD removed this, leading to the current behavior we know today.

    As for Flamethrower being possibly overpowered, yes, back in the day, me and Nite (Xploder Demo and Opcomm respectively), easily torched EC over and over. With proper positioning, most bosses died in mere seconds, and because of me FVing EVERYTHING, our ammo efficiency was something else, and at the time, Erebos HP was so low, FV + HE + Surged nuke could 1 shot him. Even queen fell to this fairly easily, but required something else to tank, (which sort of changed when I played a semi suicidal hybrid demo, FV + Taunt 3 + one hell of a good medic or engi was needed). However it is balanced by the fact that you need a good opcomm, a fairly aggressive one, and foregoing demo tank, and still being dangerous because of the close range combat needed.

    4) As for as how damage (the order of buffs on attacker/armor type modifications/armor reduction/buffs on defender) is calculated, I do not precisely know, I would need to do some controlled tests in the editor or consult another mapmaker on the subject.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    ... I have been lied to. :C
  9. FerralTech
    • Donator

    FerralTech Well-Known Member

    Umm...wouldn't the biggest misconception with the flamer be by the Dev's thinking it uses ammo instead of say fuel.
  10. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Every game in the world has specific parts of the universe that you have to ignore in order for the game to make sense. The devs could have decided that all guns have infinite ammo but require energy packs to fire, and with the normal gun you can get off 30 shots per energy pack. That sounds kind of dumb, but it works better. I prefer to just ignore that part so I can use actual bullets rather than energy-based weapons. Just like how, for some reason, civilians and assaults can run around without sealed space suits meaning apollo is one massive bio-dome. This again implies that there are miniature bio-domes inside the apollo bio-dome, and there are also space ships and artillery strikes inside the bio-dome. Guns also have 100% accuracy, people can see behind them, people don't get tired, bullets literally can't go more than a certain distance because for some reason the bullets lose all kinetic energy and fall to the ground, but they still do the same damage at maximum range as they would at point-blank, you can walk off broken bones, corpses disappear eventually, highly trained soldiers get incredibly more powerful over the course of a night, etc. To be clear, I didn't run out of plotholes to name, I set a timer on 3 minutes and those were the ones I could type out in that time. We could come up with a whole bunch of fancy reasons for why all of these things are true or we could just ignore them because they're the required mechanics of the universe of the game that we need in order for it to work.
  11. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    We've all been lied to. I feel like I just put in a bid of $800 on the price is right, and the person who went after me bid $801...
  12. David

    David Well-Known Member

    On Agrons and Meno, a direct attack will only do 2.0x damage, haven't checked the damage on anything bigger. What's interesting is that shotgun crits do variable damage with the average of that damage being the expected theoretical damage. So you can get a shotgun crit that does almost 400 damage to a massive unit
  13. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Shotgun Crits would do variable damage since the number appearing was based on what unit it actually crit on. Let me make this clear, crit does not happen on a per attack basis, it happens on per unit hit basis. This means you can fire shotgun, and have it hit 4 units, and 2 of them get crit on, and other 2 do not. Also as I indicated above, Shotgun damage is variable in nature for its aoe. So you can have a unit who takes the direct attack get a crit, doing massive damage, or you can have the outermost unit get crit, so the crit damage would appear to be tiny (1/4 of 35 * 2 = 17 damage crit, lol).
  14. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Well not really what i was referring to. There is no variability in a direct normal attack to a single target, but when the shotgun crits on that single unit, the number that flies up is not the damage that's actually done to the single unit. The number that flies up is the theoretical damage that should be done with a x4 modifier. But the variability will exceed the theoretical damage by a significant amount. Not that it has any practical applications except for the times your shotgun does almost 400 damage and you can't figure out why.
  15. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I've had my Shotgun do a 676 damage crit, no buffs or anything. Just base shotgun - mind you, a while back, but still... just. Base. Shotgun. I've also seen crits higher than that, so SOMETHING is amiss here.
  16. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Well, crits used to be their own damage effect, dealt separately from the original damage effect. Now they simply apply a buff that doubles the damage of the current attack.
  17. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    Threads like these bring me back. Also, I was the medic in those games where tart would die before he left the airlock, Erebos 1 and 2 were both melted by nukes, and "The Zombie Queen" was reduced to ash during her back to back shrieks.

    Ever seen a seasoned ops mando go crazy with the flamethrower when he has nano haste and the target is rank 2 FV? It's a joke.

    There have been lots of threads like these over the years and it tickles me that these things keep popping up. I swear it feels like we should have a wiki or something, idk.
  18. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    NiteShade?
  19. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy


    The flamethrower was considered being nerfed because of him before. So yes, it was him.
  20. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    The only reason it wasn't was that there were quite a few of those games that were cut short by the tank getting nuked and then nite disconnecting.

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