Misconception about flamer damage...

Discussion in 'Archive' started by ChuckWing, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    I've noticed recently quite a few people thinking the flamethrower is good dps on seth...

    Flamer:
    8 base damage per flame
    +5 on biological
    +2 on light
    -3 on armored
    -3 on massive
    -Shoots every 1.15 seconds

    Seth is both armored and massive. And he's neither biological or light. Therefore flamer damage is 2 per flame. That is 1.74 damage per second per flame. Even if you're hitting seth with all 12 flames (not likely), you're doing 20.9 damage per second. THAT IS TERRIBLE and rivals the m45 (17.9 dps) for worst gun to use on seth.
  2. I guess even the gpr would do better right?
  3. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Yes. Especially because the primary downfall of gauss is armor reduction, and with LD/AP/whatever it is people use these days and polarity, you're basically golden.
  4. ChocSix

    ChocSix Member

    Well, you know NOTD weapons and inventory don't mix well...
  5. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Weapon damage bonuses are calculated using the average. So in general, weapons aren't bad as they appear or as good as they appear when multiple types of bonuses are stacked up with each other.

    The flamethrower will do 5 damage against Seth: [(8-3)+(8-3)]/2 = 5
    Giving you a DPS of 52 in your scenario

    M45 Will do 37 damage: [(50-12-1)+(50-12-1)]/2 = 37
    Giving you a DPS of 26

    UA GPR - 12 will do 12 damage: [(12+4-4)+(12+4-4)]/2 = 12
    Giving you a DPS of 30

    Most likely, the max number of flames you will hit seth with as a tank are 10 giving you a 43 DPS

    Moral of the story is: flamethrower isn't that terrible but please use the crowbar instead if you're gonna stand that close
  6. Addiction

    Addiction New Member

    http://notdstarcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Calculating_Damage Nowhere does it say that damage is boosted by the average, but add or subtract ALL the bonuses. Here is a DPS chart made by AP https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlRUGSAC_MCGdF9zX1ZIUEx3el95bC10akpnMmZBR1E#gid=5
  7. David

    David Well-Known Member

    The Wiki is most likely wrong and AP himself said the bonus calculations are averaged. I used to think that way myself. But he can verify that. And I suppose I'll have to collect my own evidence or you can just take my word for it.
  8. David

    David Well-Known Member

    AP most likely constructed his DPS chart based on that article you linked, "calculating damage" (which I used to do also). The article (most likey written by Niteshade) is incorrect in more ways that one, but I will just set straight one of the errors (ask Arturia for more information if you want to figure out the correct equation for calculation damage with buffs and debuffs, etc.)

    Here it is:

    Sheng Firing a single UA 420 bullet (15 damage, 22 against massive, 22 against armored) at an Agron (3 armor)

    According to the article the damage should be 15+7+7-3 = 26

    However we see the agron goes from full health of 810 down to 791 = 19 Damage

    Let's do it the right way -> [(22-3) + (22-3)] / 2 = 19

    Hey look at that -- theory matches reality. See my initial comment for practical applications.

    Screenshot2013-09-30 16_33_43.jpg Screenshot2013-09-30 16_33_49.jpg

    As an aside, I also don't believe the common misconception that the closer you are to the target the more damage you do with a flamethrower. It looks to be dependent on unit size and number of flames that overlap with the squares the unit takes up. So a 1 square unit will take just as much damage being hit by flames 10-12 as flame as if he were standing 0.4 distance from you getting hit by flames 1-3 (but i guess that could be a discussion for another thread). Enjoy.
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton


    That's not a common misconception, that's a simplification of the truth. The Flamethrower shoots multiple projectiles and the closer you are to the target, the more projectiles are going to hit the target. The Flamethrower's damage is not necessarily based on distance, but distance is a factor.
  10. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Well David's point is that it doesn't matter which part of the flame hits as long as the flame is going all the way through the unit.
    It's also an explanation for why fmj ammo makes flamers incredibly powerful (the flames get closer together, meaning you can make more of them hit a target assuming you're good enough at microing/have a good enough tank that you won't die).
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton


    Hahahaha, that's wrong. A direct quote from the wiki:
  12. DLINK

    DLINK Well-Known Member

    Doesn't that One Inch Punch mean in order for the flamethrower to do maximum dps, the entire length of its line of flames need to be a total of 1 range? So all the flames would be so packed together that it would hit 1 target. It would also make sense as to why increasing the weapon's range would decrease its DPS. So for a normal situation, as long as the flame line passes completely through the target, you'll attain maximum DPS.
  13. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    I'd like to use this to point out sth that seems almost gamebreaking: The Flamer in the hand of an opsmando is simply OP. We started using it on Eos (or seth for that matter). if demotank permataunts and keeps agro the fight almost always takes less than a minute with that. Often you can get throu both shrieks with one shieldbubble and ttd times out just as 2nd shriek hits.
  14. EdowardoLMP

    EdowardoLMP Well-Known Member


    Yea, even faster than the old 2 OSOK KO Hades.
  15. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    David why are you dividing by two and averaging? Is it the classifications that make you do that? Meaning if you are attacking something that has three classifications that affect your gun damage [ex agron with flamer (bio, mass, arm)] then you would divide by three and average?
    How would you calculate flamer damage against an agron?

    And wolf is right. Something is not right about the flamers damage right now. Was ops mando last night in ec nm and used flamer on both seth and eos and it was doing WAY more damage than it was supposed to be doing! We had no ass dps on queen and she still died probably (at least) twice as fast as she usually does.
  16. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    well accoring to aps dmg sheet flamer deals 6.09 dmg per flame to eos. so basic attack (i just assume all flames hit since shes so big) is alrdy 73 per attack. now comes the fun into it. he ammo will boost all damage after the first hit by 50% (+ 3% weapondmg boost).
    now we got 6.27 dmg for the first flame. next 11 (and all consecutive attacks) are boosted by 50%
    already 109.7 dmg per attack.
    even more fun: 20% dmg boost from weapons expertise talent and 160% from surg with weapons exp. all for all flames
    6.09 boosted by 183% (+50% for next 11) = 17.23 (20.27 for last 11) dmg per flame
    240.2 dmg in one attack
    basic attackspeed was 1.05 if im not mistaken so we can assume that even without adrenaline we get all 15 attacks during the surg time. 3603 dmg.
    with adrena speed with boost by 1.06^30 to 574% increased attackspeed. since sc2 calculates as 1.05 secs between attacks we end up by approx 0.18 attackspeed. basicaly 5.55 attacks per second. that times 15 seconds we got surg bonus:83.25 attacks. lets say 60 with hcm and then rld but thx to 50% combo bonus thats almost nothing so 75 attacks. 240.2 dmg first atatck 243.24 all following. we end up at 18239.96 dmg

    now this is all with the flowchart dmg.

    heres what i observed ingame and how it feels ( test i did with chuck seem to support that)
    instead of adding a malus per classification ergo -3 for armor -3 for massive +5 to bio etc it seems to average. which would effectifly end up at base 7 dmg for eos and 5 dmg for seth.

    Since we think average dm is the real factor
    its 7.66 dmg per flame on eos. 11.49 for each consecutive with he.
    with all boosts 21.67 for first, 25.5 for all following.
    302.17 firt shot 306 all following. back to the 75 shots during 1 surgical
    22946.17 dmg. let that sink into your brain. almost 1/11 of eos hp gone in such a short time.

    now before you say: still seems unrealistic: heres the big deal: no weaponmods factored in. no heightened sense or crits factored in (and crits apply per flame not attack).
    with HS its alrdy 28682.71 dmg in 15 secs. and mods break it even more. not to mention crits
  17. David

    David Well-Known Member

    Correct. On an agron the flamethrower will do:

    (Bio Dmg + Armored Dmg + Massive Dmg) / 3 (Average of 3 classifications as you pointed out)

    (13+5+5)/3 = 7.66

    The beauty of fighting Seth and EOS with a flamethrower is you can probably hit them with 11 out of 12 flames because they're ginormous (compared to fighting smaller bosses like Erebos where you see the flamethrower projectile come out his back and "miss" him). What this means for an OPS commando using a flamethrower is that he will max adrenaline in 3 shots, while on bosses like Erebos it will take 4.

    If you want to see Seth die fast, try switching from a flamethrower to a shotgun after 3 - adrenaline flamethrower shots, with proper polarity stacking and HCM. The biggest detriment to OPS mando damage while combo'd with full adrenaline is the reloads. An HCM makes a difference of ~20% total damage done.
  18. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member


    Just one more mindblowing fact. (1)-> HE is not changing dmg of next flames from 21,67 to 25,5 but to 32,5 for a reason of it being debuff aplied onto enemy and coming after selfbuffs of mando. (it adds over 6k dmg to your calculation).


    BUT to be honest I am now puzzled as fuck when it comes to what is truth and what is bullshit about dmg calculations.
    David changing his stance from ~half year ago regarding formula that is on wiki aparently posted there by Niteshade who from what i understand by reading stuff had direct access to map code itself. [The formula that now is considered wrong] seriously messes up all calculations i ever did in the past for my use and adds to the confusion i am in curently.



    I wouldn't be surprised if something was wrong with flamethrower and how it interacts with mando as what i calculated earlier doesn't match up with what i see in game flaming the living shit of everything i meet. Just like there was a (2)->bug doubling dmg of osok on massive targets while using barret which we found after weeks of abuse of "amm+buffs buffs buffs" by me scorp and bunch of other ppl which lead to nerfing of osok, chem, buffing hades and other fun things.
  19. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    Who feels like doin a new damage chart for bosses?

    <---Not this guy!
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton


    Not news. It's been this way for a while. I've been toying with the idea of making him even harder to use, but I'm officially not working on NOTD anymore and NOTD II bosses won't roll over and die as easily as the current ones do.

    It's kind of a wash anyways considering that not a lot of people know how to use the Opsmando properly.

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