Medic Max SL/Heal ? Nightmare

Discussion in 'Strategy and Tactics' started by Unknown, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. Unknown

    Unknown New Member

    There're a lot of argument about this so i did the math.

    Heal : 7 hp x 6 sec (6eng) = 42 hp no cd
    SL : 40 hp x instantly/0.1-2 sec (20eng) = 40 hp 4sec cd

    I used to think SL is better because i can do some dps or instant 40 hp (who doesn't want that) after I SL but then i played a lot nm lately.

    I found out Mango used a lot Burrowed Time, I can heal Mango and he can keep DPS while I heal him since my DPS won't matter.

    Nonstop refilling Demo's shield is crucial too, keeping him from hits, DSM and I might need to heal some 1 who get shot by Infested Marines,hit by agrons and some random hits.

    These are my thoughts, i would like some opinion about this.

    Hi guys, I'm Tactical Pause :D
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  2. David

    David Well-Known Member

    It's a matter of healing RATE versus healing EFFICIENCY:

    SL 3: 10hp/s & 2hp/energy
    SL 3 is the highest RATE (hp/s) of all the medic skills (obviously nano shield is a superior skill at 30 shield/s)

    Heal: 7hp/s & 7hp/energy
    Heal is by far the highest EFFICIENCY (heal/energy)

    Situationally, at the beginning of all game modes you will be running around the map which means everyone is on the move. There will be no opportunity to stop and heal someone without slowing down the entire team, and for most situations you're expecting that nobody will be taking damage at this time. In the case where you are needed to heal at this point in the game, it will be an emergency, which requires the highest hp/s (i.e. surgical laser). The best example I can give is at the beginning of AC NM after the Starport when you first start experiencing the increased spawn rate as you're trying to make your way to the armory through Festor alley. It's pretty nuts with parasites spawning out of charging agrons, random gargoyles stacking venom on people while running through spinecrawler forests. The team has to just keep pushing forward and SL allows you to do this easier. Also consider the ability to remove multiple OWs and cripples faster, ability to shoot and do other things in between heals. Overall SL is just more versatile.

    Heal is more of an after-the-fact patch up skill that won't save anyone in a critical situation. If your only consideration is efficiency to keep the mando's health up, sure go heal. You can argue to use nano shield to save someone and then heal them (assuming you've gotten to level 5 already) or that nano-weave can over-heal a target, but the reality is the game doesn't push the limits of the medics mana pool for efficiency to be the primary concern.

    Regardless, both 3-1 or 1-3 are fine, depending on play style and situation. There is no right or wrong.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    When in doubt, ask the host what they want
  4. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    False. I've saved the demo using heal 1 in nm ec when he would have died otherwise due to hilarious damage being taken.

    You clearly haven't played a nightmare game with a bunch of players with high rating who just... suck, in a while. Using SL to heal HP means you're OOE all the time and players die because of that sole fact - that the medic is out of energy.

    Fact: I never have energy problems on heal build.
    Fact: I can't keep a decent energy pool to save my life anymore on the SL build.
    Fact: SL isn't for healing beyond an "OH FUCK" moment. It's meant to remove ailments.
    Fact: All the turbo healing in the world won't matter if you don't have the energy to do it.
    Fact: Heal talent is fucked. Heal 1 is fastest, heal 2 is slowest, heal 3 is between the two. You can observe this by checking it for yourself.

    How to medic: SL to remove ailments, heal to remove a lack of HP. Problem solved. Weave is the one you go to for on the move situations when you absolutely cannot stop moving, and someone has a deficit of HP. Weave USED to be the go-to talent for borrowed time - not anymore. It's just sheer inefficiency to use weave for that now.

    Don't rely on the wiki for information regarding heal beam. It's horribly wrong.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. JAW

    JAW Well-Known Member

    Fact: When using heal beam, you aren't shooting.
    Believe it or not, but the splash from one more gauss GPR can mean the difference between a ghoul getting within charge range or not. If you add some of your own dps, you help keep the horde at bay, and by extension, prevent the team from getting hurt in the first place. There will be times where one person falls a bit behind or starts to get swarmed and the rest of the team might be busy trying to cleave a path forward, so it will fall on you to not only heal the endangered soldier, but to also provide covering fire from ghouls and other swift mobs in a very narrow window of time.
    • I'll drink to that! I'll drink to that! x 1
  6. Unknown

    Unknown New Member

    True though.

    In my experience there are 2 mass ghouls situations such as EC start holdout and Scrapyard, if i might add Airport holdout and Mine holdout since these two includes lot of common zombies which corpses will spawn ghoul, since you talk about GPR

    *If people get hits, things happen like these :
    a. Tank no taunt
    b. Window between each taunt which wouldn't one hit KO any people
    c. Position
    d. Tank's shield armor ain't high enough ( cp problem ) but we can actually overcome this
    e. No knife
    f. Mass white reload
    g. Very rare situation
    Please add more ~

    1.EC Start Holdout
    It's always demo tank so I wouldn't even bother to heal.
    D. can be apply to this i think pretty much
    see *

    see *

    3.EC Mine Holdout
    see 1 and *

    By the time you can have flamer for DPS
    see *

    5.Infested Marine + Agron's flying vision /Parasite
    Some 1 get multiple venom, open wound and cripple. In this situation medic will always SL > Shield or vice versa 1st.
    Let's do the math
    Max SL + AV : 40hp + 10hp ( 20 energy + 15 energy )
    Max Heal + AV : [insert hp x sec] + 10 hp ( energy/sec + 15 energy )

    Is it worth to waste skill points for incompetent players at the early game ?

    Maybe I'm being subjective here :p
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  7. David

    David Well-Known Member

    So I did some testing, this is what I found:

    Heal 1 - 9 hp/s, ~3.17energy/s
    Heal 2 - 5 hp/s, 1 energy/s
    Heal 3 - 7 hp/s, ~1.75 energy/s
    (the energy consumption rate takes into factor the innate energy recharge rate, mine is 1.22 energy/s)

    What this means for efficiency is:

    Heal 1 - 2.84hp/energy
    Heal 2 - 5hp/energy
    Heal 3 - 4hp/energy

    - Obviously Heal 1 is broken
    - Heal 2 is the most mana-efficient medic skill
    - Heal 3 is less efficient than nanoweave 2 (4.8 hp/energy)
    - Heal 1 is roughly equivalent to SL 3 in healing rate (SL 3 is theoretically higher but probably falls just below 10hp/s due to casting time/human lag/game lag)
    - Healing a commando with heal 1 is only a little bit more efficient than using SL, and marginally worse than nano-weave 1

    Anyways, I'm not sure what you will take away from this. The only thing this changes for me is that I will go for heal 1 instead of SL at the beginning of Alpha company to heal the tank.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  8. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Shooz says healz not sl. Therefore I go healz.
  9. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    I've proven that heal 3 (to myself) is more efficient than weave. Yes, it's 120 life for 25 energy - but, it's a *set* energy cost. Heal has no *set* energy cost, you choose how much you put out. You also regenerate energy during the healing process, causing it to be less of a blow to your overall energy pool for the same amount of HP - as weave is an immediate deficit of 25 energy, heal is not; softening the blow.
  10. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    This topic feels very familiar, seems like the SL vs heal argument pops up once a year minimum.

    Think everyone covered it pretty decently above. If you want energy efficiency, go 3heal. If your team is good/lucky enough to avoid most hits, go 3SL.

    Besides, you pretty much get medkits and bandages rained down on you throughout the game, shouldn't be afraid to use them now and then. You get like 3 medkits at the starting area and 2 bandages from the medic at the start, heal level 1 should never be the deciding factor in your team surviving the first wave. Much like having level 1 or level 3 heal should not be the deciding factor in your medic being constantly out of energy, that's either shitty luck or shitty team and neither can be helped by medic talent builds alone.
  11. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Navy Cross games are very frequent now in nightmare.
  12. MissHumpz
    • Event Coordinator
    • Community Leader

    MissHumpz NOTD Staff: Event Coordinator & Amazing Amazer

    I'm putting in my 2cents on this post because A) Medic is my favourite class and I've been playing it consistently over the years and B) I'm sick of this Max Heal nonsense.
    Now I don't know what kind of sissie people are playing medic, but I play it rather aggressively and don't sit around and watch others fight. For those on teamspeak will know my catchphrase "Combat Medic".


    Majority of the times when someone needs to be healed, all hell is breaking lose and chances are everyone is getting their asses handed to them.

    1. Yes Max Heal is energy efficient. But that's all it is. It does not offer you anything else but that.
    2. Heal stops you from moving. Therefore impacts your ability to kite in undesirable situations, which happens a lot in NOTD because it is designed to keep you on your toes.
    3. Heal stops you from shooting. I know the medic is not a dps class but thats no excuse for anyone to not contribute to the overall dps of the team.
    4. Heal becomes irrelevant when higher tier abilities become available. IF you are going to heal someone, heal is the last ability I would chose from the range of abilities that are available to me. Restoration instantly restores Health and Energy (correct me if I'm mistaken) and Nano Weave gives someone Health over time, leaving the medic free to shoot and kite to their heart's content and attend to other wounded soldiers.
    5. You can go the whole game without using heal once, its not an important ability to have at all.

    SL is A NECESSITY FOR THE GAME! The whole reason you have a medic is to heal and remove aliments and SL is an important (if not required) ability to have.
    1. SL removes multiple aliments, such as, Blindness, Cripple, Open Wound, Madness (in conjunction with Restoration). SL is the only ability in the game that can do all of that.
    2. MAX SL decreases cooldown for that ability and when all hell breaks lose, that can be a lifer saver for those suffering from multiple aliments. Also ideal when everyone has Open Wound after vsing Apop in the Sec storyline.
    3. SL does not restrain your movement. You can heal and constantly be on the move, ideal for every scenario when you aren't camping on high grounds.
    4. SL does not restrain your dps. You can easily maintain a constant dps and heal someone with SL, increasing your team's chances of survival.
    5. SL is an ability that you constantly be using throughout the game, and it only improves and receives benefits when you finally get your hands on your T3 Restoration. Making Restoration + SL my main method of healing teammates as it fixes all the problems in one go and also benefits the surrounding team with additional energy and heals.
    6. Chances that you HAVE to use SL in a game are very high, anyone can get an aliment from just a single hit and ideally in the games I play, I make sure noone suffers from the penalties of aliment for long. SL is a requirement to have.

    SL offers more benefits and versatility than Heal in every imaginable scenario.

    I'm out.
    *drops mic*
    • Rainbow Sticker Rainbow Sticker x 1
  13. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    *shrug* Original post did not specify NC when he mentioned NM so I disregarded it. If your team is going for NC then yeah, you should adjust accordingly.
  14. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    Sure. You go all game healing the commando, keeping EVERYONE at 100% health with your silly SL build. The point is; you have a bottom of the barrel shitty team if people are dying because your fucking surgical laser is on cooldown enough to warrant NEEDING level 3 from removing ailments so much.

    Fact: 20 energy, 40 HP. Surgical laser three.
    Fact: 20 energy exhausted, down to 225 from 245; a whole helluva lot more health healed.

    Scenario: What happens when your demo dies from taking sustained, constant damage, because you took two points in surgical laser, and neglected heal for what it is?

    Game wipe; start over. X amount of time wasted.

    Point is; heal is bottomline the most efficient single target heal there is. It now takes three people under non-sustained threat for restoration to be more efficient. Nano Weave sucks; and spoiler: Unless it's drastically modified, that's not changing any time soon.

    Surgical laser sucks because it has zero sustainability. It's a burst of 40 HP every 4 seconds. A demo takes sustained damage equivalent to what heal 3 and 1 both put out. Surgical laser at level 3 is the ONLY level talent that has a prayer of competing with heal in sheer health restoration; and it loses horribly for efficiency.

    Demo's life went from 207 to 923 with 200 energy on heal; now to do that with SL (lol)

    In my test map; I set the cooldown of surgical laser up to 7.

    SL 3 restoring 40 HP a hit every 7 seconds with 20 energy cost.

    Even with this change, the demo only made it to a whopping 840 hp, from 200 - couple that with a shorter cooldown and you would end up at 680 HP
    Show Spoiler

    Math: SL Costs 20 energy at level 3 heals 40 HP. 200 Energy pool with base regen rate

    You'd restore at most 480 HP with JUST surgical laser; energy regen taken into account. For 240 energy. For that much energy I could healbeam about 1300 HP.

    In this map; the demo has zero health regeneration; with a life ceiling of 20000 HP.

    Heal ONE (less efficient) is healing 543 health for 200 energy. Let's see the exact number that heal 3 does? 716. I think I've made my point here.

    My test map is dated, and heal 3 is even better now than it was on my test map.

    Please, for the love of everything, stop basing your recommendations based on knowledge garnered in a vacuum and posited entirely in theory.

    Play higher level games routinely, get into a match of NotD NOW with a nightmare team at 2200+ SR with a shitty team that eats hits. LIVE the fucking frustration of being out of energy from healing the commando with that stupid ass surgical laser 24/7, and have no energy to shield the tank, or tend to any triage needs resulting in nothing but failures and deaths.

    When the player who plays damn near NOTHING BUT MEDIC does heal 3 build over SL 3, it's based on fucking experience and countless failures with surgical laser 3. I WANT to love surgical laser as a healing talent; please, believe me. I do. But having seen and experienced the sheer efficiency of healbeam for healing as opposed to surgical laser, I can't. I just can't. Ask numerous players who've seen me tout surgical laser. I used to front the same argument you do now.

    Ask Wolf. Ask Linnard. Both of them are great medics, and they use heal beam as opposed to surgical laser for sheer HP needs. But hell, don't listen to me; play a few games as a surgical laser medic again and wipe because you can't keep someone alive. I'm here to tell you, medic DPS compared to, you know, actual DPS classes? Fucking peanuts.

    The only reason a medic needs to kill something is (experience here): is a teammate is hugged and the medic is there, to save their life, to get experience for more levels, and... that's about it as far as field aid is concerned.

    Notice: This post was edited and amended more than once.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    Agree with squish. If you try to keep your team alive and heal a cutting mando with max sl good luck. you either need a team that takes 0 hits/ailments or you probably play 1500sq recruit. in not a single 2400+ sq nm i did, max sl saved the team. its always on CD when its really needed. those 4 seconds fuck your team up. Not to mention that its completly inefficent compared to heal.
    and if you cant even stutterstepheal with beam then chances are you cant even micro properly to begin with.

    Tl;DR git gud with medic or gtfo
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  16. squish

    squish Well-Known Member

    *1 No kidding.
    *2 Same here....
    *3 Absolutely agree
    *4 Experience would show this one...
    *5 Yes. Thank you.

    *# comes after the statement with which the reply it's meant for.

    Wolf, I edited my reply to humpz again.
  17. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    Jup my experience completly agrees with these test results. Also i want to see how you keep someone with 20 venomstacks alive with only sl lvl 3 and your av ability in a NC game. Chances are Reality is youre out of energy before you even removed 5 stacks. Or he died in those 4 sec cd. Beam is jsut so much more convenient. But feel free to play w/e you want and prepare to loose MoH quite often.
  18. Unknown

    Unknown New Member

    This I Like. Lol

    I don't play like 100 games. But i know what can i do if i want to DPS as it.

    It's Nightmare right ?
    Muta - M45 won't OHKO
    Zombie - Flame won't 1 OHKO or I can't burst it

    [Insert higher tier mobs] - Can I burst it with any gun ?
    Unless I'm stinging or L3, which I'm not.

    Stinger goes to Assa/SMM AFAIK.

    L3 is when i get to whore level when camping at Bio-Chem at Survival mode.

    Games go far ? Unless I'm burning ammo with SMG or i won't be doing DPS
  19. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    IDK, the common theme I'm finding from all this is that 3heal is great if you're NC-ing AND have a terribad team. Which shouldn't be the norm or common? If your team is so bad that you're constantly taking hits and you decide that you want to go ahead and NC anyway (with one medic at that even), then there's a logic disconnect here that I'm not quite understanding.
  20. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    No its jsut that 3 beam will save you from much more random Errors your team could make. If you had a Team that doesnt take any hits then it wouldnt matter what you max since you would be jobless as medic anyways.
    In a normal MoH game theres always th tank that needs heals/shielding and a commando that wants to cut and one or two more dps classes that take randomhits from anything that decides to ignore taunt/attacks while taunt is on cd/ ignores spark because its broken. If you only try to keep a tank and mando alive wth nth but max sl, impregnabubble and weave youre gonna run out of energy before the fight is over.
    If i play with good players i know i sometimes just go Nanomedic because you dont need any heals at all. But for your average team that plays at 2200+ sq and takes hits Sl will be a remakeguarantee a lot of times while Beam will save the day.

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