Marksman T1s & Innate Skills

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by FlintLckwood, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. FlintLckwood

    FlintLckwood New Member

    Really Kith? I would have expected Concentration to move to Assassination.

    Concentration, extra damage when you take your time for a shot, should also stack onto OSOK, since it works with that. And isn't the overall theme of Assassination to use precise strikes to kill enemies?

    Now, Scope does have a slight synergy with the Assassination tree, but it's very limited, such a short extra range, and even then only in front of you. I think Scope fits more in Subtlety, because of it's ability to peer over walls and obstacles. Without it, Shadow Step is useless unless you stand in the middle of a very clear field. Even with Scope now, I'm sure everyone has the memory of accidently running head first into a slasher and becoming a blood splatter on the ground.

    But we digress again.

    I still think the HMG is just fine as a weapon. Any buff would seriously overpower the weapon when it's put into the hands of a class that can take advantage of it.
  2. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    RE: HMG Discussion

    In terms of thoughts, Crit & Concentration should have been swapped, but with playstyles as they are currently, most Subs actually get a heavy Weapon and as a result, benefit more from Concentration than Crit because it provides them reliable damage (Stinger and Barret being the serious firepower packed on them, because Quick Aim just makes them Extremely powerful)

    Scope is extremely essential to a Sub's survival, its one of the reason Sub Marks actually works better then mobcon in most scouting instances, excluding the massively increase damage out-put.
  3. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: HMG Discussion

    The question I feel gets lost in the Scope/Sub MM discussion here is:

    Should the SubMM BE a better scout than the Mobility Recon?

    It's not like they are mutually exclusive. The MobCon does almost nothing BUT scout and disengage from enemies. The SubMM does that AND a lot of damage.

    It strikes me as bad design to say "Oh yeah, that specialist there, this class can do the same role, but also fits an additional niche as well, at the same time".

    It'd be like... think if we came up with a Scientist for example that had really efficient Healing/Condition Removal, AND also had the AoE Doom Templates of the Nanotech tree as well. Why would anyone choose the Medic over that Scientist? Particularly if they are both in every storyline?
  4. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Mobrec does the one thing SubMM cant: Protect Allies

    All SubMM can do it kill and run away. As for dps he's horribly mediocre without his T3.
  5. FlintLckwood

    FlintLckwood New Member

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Umm, only if they have time to get the Concentration points. Normally when I sub I have them for a small part of the battle, then they are gone, because I don't every really bother to 'charge' them up except before boss battles, and even then I run out of concentration way before the boss dies.

    For an example, if I shoot 100 times, the first 30 of those shots will get +36% damage. But if I had Critical Strike, then 33~ of those shots will deal +100% damage, which is a significant boost to DPS. Also, as you said, using the Stinger/Barret for high damage consistent strikes with Concentration fits (to me) Assassination better.

    Giving Sub's Critical instead of Concentration will increase their damage output. Because instead of having times where they won't attack in order to save up, they will be able to cut loose and still have a reliable, if inconsistent, damage boost.

    Also, I've always used/thought of the Subt marksman as more of a special tactics unit. He's good at saving allies, with his speed boost and cloak he is able to lead units away and return to the team. With his shared bonus to speed he is able to increase the squad's. His skills seem to be more solo based, but he is best played as a 'special tactics' type character. Stays with the squad, but has leniency to do things such as check out down a bridge really quick, or move ahead into vision blocked areas. He moves around the team, rather than with the team, if that makes sense. As such, good judgement is paramount to playing him. You can't just run off willy nilly, but you have the ability to do things that no one else can, and you should exploit those advantages.

    The Mob Recon to me has two distinct roles that are mutually exclusive. Either the full support, with escape and combat measures to help the team in tight spots, or the solo runner, with cloak and reflexes (refresher highly benefits both). Certain times he is needed to help the team through tough fire fights, other times he goes off on assigned (not random, agreed upon designated missions with a clear objective and regroup location) missions, either to kill, activate, or collect.

    While these classes have some areas of overlap, they aren't able to do the things the other class can. The Marks can do minor checks and move about the group freely, but he doesn't have the energy pool or regen for an extended solo mission (other than low risk, which really doesn't happen on times like NM speed runs). The recon can help the group escape and survive waves, but he can't take down a priority target in the middle of a big firefight, while the marks can kick on cloak and quick aim to drop the hugger on the spot.
  6. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    Fact: Critical Strikes and Concentration are opposite the combat styles of the classes.
    The SubMM focuses and using Quick Aim spam to get as many shots as possible during his cloak, for maximum bonus damage.
    Meanwhile, AssMM only uses slow shooting Marksman Rifle and Barrett because they have OSOK requirement. Oddly they aren't needed for Mono.

    Switching them would benefit the current classes weapon styles more, but hurt the existing playstyles.
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion


    Putting Scope in the Assassination tree? Why?
    Synergizes with goddamn everything. You're able to see further, so there's a greater chance of Anticipation proccing, in addition to being able to OSOK earlier and see what you need to mono.

    But Kith, you're effectively neutering the Subtlety Marksman as a scout!
    I know. That's my intent. I'm tired of SMMs being a better scout than the dedicated scout class. The Mobcon can out-kite anything, but if he runs into detectors, he has to work his way around them. The SubMM can just kill whatever he runs into that detects, and while his cloak isn't as sustainable as the Mobcon's, it doesn't really need to be. There are fine examples of Escape Mobcons moving around Apollo with no issues because they know when to cloak.

    Sooo... why Crit AND Concentration for the SubMM?
    The SMM is a guerrilla fighter. For all the people aching for an ambush style class, we've had one all along in the Subtlety Marksman. He's able to reposition rapidly, cloak, and the longer he takes to set up an ambush, the more damage he deals. Moving Crits to Subtlety will make the SMM a "general DPS" while with the group, and once he racks up concentration points, he'll be capable of expending them on a precision strike to severely cripple the enemy. Once he hits his Tier 3, he'll be a force to be reckoned with as arguably the most powerful burst damage in the game.

    I can see your reasoning behind the Sub MM, but what about the Ass MM? What's his role?
    A long-range caster. Taking out enemies before they get near with the massive damage from OSOK and being able to disable them with Mono if they start getting too close.

    What's going to happen to OSOK?
    Rebalanced. Will base damage and cooldown on what weapon you're using. The M-45 will lead to more frequent OSOKs and the Barrett will lead to much more devastating ones. I'm toying with the idea of rewarding energy upon kills, but one of the for-sure additional effects of OSOK is going to be fractional damage so it becomes a much more powerful tool vs. bosses.
  8. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    It makes more sense that Sub would have Crit as he is the one that should be using light, rapid fire weaponry, while Assassin is not so much chance based but a slow shooting, powerhitter with skills that would work well.

    However the current play style for most cases is that the Subtly Marksman is generally more useful then Ass, esp. in consideration of Apollo B domes.

    Fact is, Assassin Marksman's only DPS increase between Barret & Marksman Rifle is just the fact that his normal auto-attacks now hit harder on most things. Nothing else in his skill-set gets changed. There is no difference in the potency of the Assassin's Skill between having a Barret or Marksman Rifle. Not only that, Subtly in its current incarnation, is used for rapid damage deployment, but for the highest effect, power weapons are employed such as the Barret or Stinger. Rapid Fire, Concentration, and Master of Subtly all Benefit the usage of various weapons. The Assassin Marksman only employs Sniper-type weapons, but it doesn't matter which is used since it has no effect on his Skills potency, while it does for the Subtly Marksman. Until that gets revised, you won't see people handing the Ass marks a Barret over the Sub Marks. The DPS utility of the latter compared to the former with Barret is far too superior, even if you swap Critical & Concentration.

    In alpha, the Sub Marks would employ a Stinger or Barret vs Persues, and Rapid Fire + Cloak + Concentration him down, at least from what I have seen.

    In apollo (b), the Sub marks would employ a Stinger or Barret, and take out the domes using the same tactics. He would ignore most of the spawns unless they threatened him, and would have an ample amount of charges to destroy the domes. A stinger would easily demolish a dome, with 400 base damage to them (unless they aren't considered massive... which would be a pretty big wtf), and the same could also be argued for Nazara.

    While Crit would benefit the intention of the Subtly Marksman, in his current incarnation and play styles, he is used as a Burst DPS, and is preferred over Assassin. Assassin Dominates Public Games simply because the Barret and Stinger are missing, the potent tools often carried by a Subtly Marksman, and the much lower health values of enemy's. OSOK can easily take out an Agron in a Public game, but not so much a Nightmare game.
  9. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    RE: HMG Discussion

    Minor nitpicks, Concentration got buffed to 20/40/60% per shot. Also stinger fires so slow that you have effectively infinite concentration with it (4 seconds between shots, 3 seconds to get a concentration point).

    Back to the main topic at hand. I understand where Kith is coming from, the SMM is the far better scout as an unintended side effect (IMO) of being the perfect solo hunter. I can understand how scope in theory would aid AMM, in allowing you to see more to utilize OSOK incredible range. Playstyles will adjust, but unfortunately, for me I see the change as too little. Basically need to make scope a t2 to have any meaningful change, otherwise every SMM will be just put off T3 to go 1 scope for that scouting/sniping capability early game. SMM doesn't NEED his t3 to be effective dps, he has concentration+ QA and can easily get in position with shadowstep/cloak. The other issue with just swapping the 2 skills is in the one storyline favored most by SMM, Apollo Sec, EVERYONE over levels into 1.5 trees, so for SMM, it changes basically nothing about his mid to late game playstyle.

    Just my thoughts on the change. Full Disclosure, I play SMM almost exclusively on Apollo Sec.[hr]
    I think this needs to be emphasized, and lends weight to the OSOK rework. SubMM has all PERCENTAGE based damage modifications, which lead to far more absolute effect with high base power weapons (Barret/Stinger). OSOK is a flat damage ability, which inevitably means it will always either A) Be massively overpowered for low level (any non NM) play or B) Be massively underwhelming for high level (NM).
  10. fox

    fox New Member

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    I reckon both trees are fine as is. Swapping Scope and Crit will buff smm over the roof while amm suffers a major osok damage loss unless adjustments are made.

    Hell I'll pick smm every game and add 1 scope before building smm trees...

    Scope isn't really that useful to amm as it only buffs vision in a forward cone. Most of the time (a good) amm is looking 1-2 screens away for targets to osok. The additional vision provided by the Scope is pathetic for that purpose. Even if it gives +5 vision per level in a forward cone, imagine if you have to xf, move your character abit so the vision rotates by 45 degrees, look 1-2 screens away again then repeat the above process. I do not find the procedure above attractive and chances are amm still need to rely on recon flares and therefore IMO Scope doesn't really provide good synergy with AMM skills. Occs are much better options.

    Swapping Crit with Concentration may buff amm better if Concentration stacks with osok, but that makes smm losses 30% potential damage vs bosses. Once again adjustments must be made to buff smm trees in this scenario.
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    Odd question:

    Is there any particular reason that we are even considering the scope ability being on the Marksman?

    I mean it seems that it's an ability to turn the SubMM into the best scout in the game. And it would do little for the Assassination Marksman. The Scope isn't being used to turn the SubMM into an Opportunist Hunter (which I presume the point of it was). I'm sure that if we wanted we could come up with a tier 1 that would fit the Assassin in a way that most of us would be happy.
  12. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    No violent objections from my side :p

    Just throwing it out there, Sniper Scope should go to the Assassination Marksman for he does indeed just use a sniper based weapon. The Assassination Marksman is designed to take out single targets with ease.
    Something I previously suggested for Sniper Scope was it granting a damage increase to sniper based weapons or a chance to outright kill a target for with the scope he can better aim his spots going for outright kill shots such as a headshot or vital shots.

    Sniper Scope (P)(Must have M-45 Marksman Rifle or Barret equipped)
    Level 1 - Increases frontal sight range by 2 and grants a 5% chance to kill a non-Armored, non-Massive and non-Heroic target outright
    Level 2 - Increases frontal sight range by 4 and grants a 10% chance to kill a non-Massive and non-Heroic target outright
    Level 3 - Increases frontal sight range by 6 and grants a 15% chance to kill a non-Massive and non-Heroic target outright

    This will be really useful across all difficulties as regardless to a basic creeps health they will get killed with minimal effort. At Level 2 and 3 he can kill Stalkers with a single shot if it procs and save him energy because I see alot of Marksman players have a tendency to OSOK everything with 4 legs or more that they see. For balance, it can't be active during Quick Aim or the percentage drops a bit.

    If you go with a damage increase it will synergize with Concentration and Critical Strikes.
  13. FlintLckwood

    FlintLckwood New Member

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    Is my old age showing?

    Recon is a dedicated scout class? Since when. Especially a Mob Recon. Surv Recons as a scout makes sense, but then trying to say Shadowstep+Scope has anything on Heart Beat Sensor+Drone is laughable. Mob Recons should either be with the group, or out soloing a specific objective. Sub Marks should be around the group, with the ability to quickly run somewhere and run back. Extended forays with a SubMM detracts significantly from the teams DPS.

    What, exactly, are we calling scouting here anyway? This isn't a ladder match, we already know 95% of the time what is going to happen where, and the other 5% we know when it's going to happen. Is just looking for items scouting? Then that's a team job as the team moves. Or it's the Surv Recon's job to use his drone while he is in a safe zone to find items for the group. Also, Marks have crap for item space, while Recon's have a ton of item slots, making them infinitely more effective at item hunting, because I take up 3-4 slots off the bat with just weapons, ammo, medkits.

    This seems to be attempting to balance for a real world concept that isn't even in the game.

    This is ridiculous. Seriously, I'll click in a circle to see the corners of my screen, then if there is something there I have to run towards it to see it, then OSOK it. Not only is the extra range pointless, because it's almost always wasted off of screen, but I have to rush closer to enemies unless they move within my natural sight range in order to get my scope sight on them.

    This also is an attempt to ruin one of the strongest team synergy's in the game. The Surv Recon + Assassin Marks. This also fits in with real world concepts even. In sniper teams, there is a spotter and a sniper.

    Isn't this intended use for Scope (gaining further vision) stepping on the toes of the Surv Recon?

    The only real use of Scope as it stands is to remove vision blockers. even with greater range, the only use it's going to see is to remove vision blocking. Which, again, doesn't that step on the Recon's toes? For Subt, it doesn't squish toes as much because he only used it to really direct his movements with Shadowstep (and the occasional "bling train in apollo", but HBS does this much more effectively, making that point moot). Also, for this 'Guerilla fighter' idea of the Subt Marks, wouldn't removal of vision blockers make more sense for their ability to ambush the enemy?

    And, finally, this won't change anything about the Sub being a better 'scout.' They will simply adjust to a slightly less reckless use of ShadowStep when near vision blocking, which will in turn mean that they have more energy and allow them to solo/'scout' even better.

    I like the current revision of OSOK though.
  14. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    Like Flint mentioned, I agree with Flint and Fox. i like the current revision of OSOK,

    but scope and blah blah stuff? doesn't make sense to me. skills are fine as it is.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    The Barrett is rare enough as it is, which is another factor. No, buying a Barrett does not factor in.

    The hitpoints based damage is in addition to the base damage.

    Since the Mob Recon, Flint. His job of "go out and find shit" has been around since day one. A good mobcon is rarely present once he gets the ability to move about, often scouring the map for items and ammunition.

    You haven't seen the Apollo Security of today. Ask Arcane about how the SubMM is basically on his own for two thirds of the game.

    It can be, yes, but if you want speed, or if Diode is the Recon, your Mobcon is supposed to bring things to you.

    At Tier 3. The Mobcon can do it all game.

    Intelligent Marksmen are capable of making use of those lower item slots by dropping off what they don't need with the team and not getting hit.

    It is very much a present mechanic, Flint. I wouldn't mention it otherwise.

    It's hardly pointless when two of the Assassination's skills rely on being able to attack a unit at x distance.

    Not hardly. The Surv Recon can still see MUCH farther than the AssMM could, meaning that a good Survcon will be a massive help to any AssMM present. The talent is present to supplement the AssMM's abilities. It is by no means necessary, and indeed, the Scope can be skipped if the team has a good Survcon, but it is there to supplement the AssMM's skills.

    No. Because it's not giving vision to the entire team.

    I really don't understand why it's fine in one tree but not fine in the other. Also, not really. It's just a question of treading carefully when you're getting ready to attack.

    Trust me, yes it will. Ask any SubMM player how much this will impact their scouting abilities. Being able to see where you're going at all times makes scouting significantly easier, and it means you can conserve energy better because you always have a better idea of when and where you should Shadowstep or Cloak.


    Maniac, I have a great deal of respect for you as a player and as a veteran, but you really need to put more effort into your posts. Why are they fine? What specifically are you having issues with? "blah blah" doesn't really communicate to me any significant information. This is a discussion, saying "blah blah" and hoping that makes your point isn't going to fly.
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    I was saying how the % damage alone would already be incredibly powerful and to some extent OP and now you are telling me you are adding the OSOK damage ON TOP of the % ?!

    That is pretty ridiculous damage output IMO.

    In that case I would not be voting for anything higher than 3% of current HP on top of the base damage bonus. Even 3% is high in that regard.
  17. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    No point to it, or Mobrec really.

    1: It's not nearly as much energy based dps, so it lends itself to eating more ammo (quick aim spam.)
    2: It's talents do not help early game. Up until the gas you stay with the Minis, no need for cloak, or speed.
    3: No early game soloing, again, you move as a team.
    4: Waay too many detectors. Between the Agrons in the passive spawns and the massive detection range on bosses, cloak rarely serves a purpose.

    SubMM makes a great Tanaka runner, and could solo scout/kill Compliance Nexus on his own while team goes their own way. Could also speed boost the civs from Nagawaki Bay. Thats all the real usages I've got.

    Meanwhile Assassin has a buff that can boost the firepower of 2 dozen minis in a split second, and one of the few early game stuns.
  18. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    Also to add further, Subs main weapons (Barret/Stinger/HMG) are all in better hands with someone else or just straight useless. Stinger can't be used on any boss, since all are close in combat. Barret is better in the hands of a Crofl, or barring that Cengy, or AMM if neither are present. HMG universally goes to the same 3 classes as well (Nuker,Engie,Crofl). So SMM isn't really left with any decent weapon, nothing to hunt, and lackluster dps overall in a story full of powerhouses of DPS and AoE. AMM is better because despite all that wonderful AoE, Alpha lacks single target stuff quite a bit, and thus OSOK shines for bosses and those oshit moments of slashers and titans.
  19. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    I don't see why there isn't more support for crits on Sub. It's not like we cant buff it to have better numbers.

    Do you people really think you're getting your mileage out of Concentration. Unless you're using a Stinger/Barrett as your primary weapon, you spend most of the game with no concentration because you're entire class focuses on shooting at 300% speed for best results. Thats SubMM's ONLY dps boost as an active skill until u get cloak T3. Crits still makes Powerful weapons strong, and lets you spam faster weapons without instantly burning through concentration like I see every SubMM do.

    I bet if someone looked it over, a SubMM spends 80% of the game with <5 concentration. At least on AssMM where you stick to slow guns its got more natural synergy. "Oh but need submm uses stinger." No shit, that was just us adapting to work around the piss poor concentration gain rate. Before stinger SubMM was confined to Sniper for range, Shotgun for close, or else he burned all his concen.

    And the best part of Concen on AssMM is you can make it stack with Osok, possibly use more charges for the sake of balance, but it's better than the percentage bonuses of crit Osok needs to rely on to remain competent in NM.
  20. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Marksman Skill Discussion

    Concentration stays on sub so he can still remain in his ambush burst damage role. Ass MM is going to be the precision caster who gets bonuses if he lines up his shots to be as long range as possible.

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