Marksman Skill Discussion

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Lord NiteShade, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Shortly after OSOK got crits. And the Crits were going insane. Hell, I know someone on the forums here has a post with a Gif of one of those OSOKs that did something like 36k damage to IVAX.
  2. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    That was with Ivax Rage buff i guess. That increases damage so much. Only that Ivax moment.
  3. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Nah, because you could also get insane hits against Cromo, Demeter, Perses as well. It wasn't just IVAX. IVAX just stood out as the best example because it did get that 36k crit which stood as the record (And probably because RAGE was involved). But it wasn't uncommon to see numbers like 11,200 or something pop up over your head when you hit a boss with an OSOK.

    It's why good Alpha Company teams always used Assassins and said fuck Subtlety even as Sub was gaining popularity at the time in Easy Company and Apollo.

    Edit: If I remember it was because OSOK and Crit stacked stuff really weird for a while. Where things were calculated in some insane fashion so instead of OSOK and Crit getting a double damage. You got something like OSOK, with HP, with Crit, With Anticipation, With AP... etc. And add it all.

    ... Maybe I'm just losing my mind. But I do seem to recall something like that.
  4. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    That was Ivax's Bane with its 500% bonus damage. I did an Ivax Baned Surg Nuke once and tore a rift in the fabric of reality.

    There was also that stack overflow on Osok that caused each shot to be every damage possibility combined.
    Ie, Osok+(Osok+Crit)+(Osok+Ap)+(Osok+AP+Crit) ect ect ect
  5. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Good Alpha Company teams continue to say "fuck Subtlety".
  6. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Still suggests OSOK alone then was doing 6k damage even without it. So if that was acceptable then I don't know why the hatred for that sort of damage against bosses only now.
  7. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    AMM energy is better saved for mono in the event of Titans. But yeah, Subtlety isn't great (or even good) for Alpha. The Crit switch would lead to the SubMM getting away with being okay-ish dps that's capable of making good use of all of that ammo he's expending.
  8. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Hmph.

    The Priority list for Marksmen is as such.
    1: Rebalance OSOK
    2: Less Important Shit.

    Osok has degenerated into one of those "doesnt scale to difficulty" talents. Agrons these days top out at 1700+ health. I'm not even sure a T3 Crit Osok will OHK that.

    At level 3 Osok should flat out deal a killing blow to any non-heroic enemy. Yes this includes infestors, but honestly most/all should be long dead by the time you reach T3. The biggest threats this includes are Agrons at 1700~, Infestors at 3600~, and Brain Bugs at who knows what (5k?). It puts back the role of KMS into a place that makes much more sense, and hopefully takes some of the "wait until target is injured, steal kill" and makes the Marksman more "dispatch high value targets asap" again. If you complain about it stealing exp because of this, your delusions are silly. If the MM hits T3 that early, its his job NOT to continue overleveling. And most other players should be hitting T3 soon anyways. Beyond chapter 1, its more or less everyone T3 and just kill as efficient as possible.

    At "Level 3" Osok should deal X base damage to bosses + Y% of total health (not health remaining). Yes, this makes it stronger vs high hp bosses. I'm talking like 800 Damage + 1% Total Health. Queen has a base health of 50,000 so it would add 500 vs her. Honestly, thats reasonable. 1300 damage a shot still wouldnt be strong enough to kill the afforementioned Agron. If this were the highest nm game the numbers would be closer to 2750. That's still pretty reasonable when you look at Queens sheer bulk of hp. Marksman has a base energy of 200, and for 20 energy each thats only 10 osoks. 11 if you throw in regen. 11x2750=30,000~. That's excluding crits, anticipation, and any other outside damage buffs. Honestly those are numbers more befitting a class designed around taking out high value targets. I also dare the so called "marksmen players" to challenge that opinion.

    Now, as for scope and concen, anticpation, and all that other crap. That can wait. Rebalance OSOK first. Learn to walk before you sprint.
    Hmph.
  9. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    You just killed me there.

    I have to agree with what you said; OSOK should just take out any non-heroic flat out in 1 shot at level 3.

    Some sort of scaling like this:

    One Shot, One Kill.
    Level 1: 200 damage + 25% of non-heroic targets HP, +.25% of heroic targets HP.
    Level 2: 400 damage + 50% of non-heroic targets HP, +.5% of heroic targets HP.
    Level 3: 800 damage + 1% of heroic targets HP. Flat out kills non-heroic targets.

    Critical Strikes Deal 2x Damage / Effects i.e. a Critical On OSOK2 would flat out kill a nonheroic target, and would deal 1% of a heroic targets health to it in damage.

    Level Scaling is Doubling the values up from their previous value.
  10. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    I would like to echo some of the sentiments expressed in this thread about the need to rebalance OSOK before considering any other changes.

    Currently, even a fully levelled AssMM can do a maximum of 1170 (600+50%+30%) with OSOK, which is a pitiful amount considering most Agrons will have 1700 hp. Indeed, a level 1 AssMM with a Barrett will do almost the same amount of damage using the starting skill Quickaim (more if some Crits process). Considering a non-critical OSOK will not even kill a Slasher with one cast, it is sorely in need of a rework.

    The change proposed by Arturia makes the most sense to me.

    However, I would leave critical strike as a flat damage boost for simplicity's sake. Given that a 50% damage increase on OSOK2 would result in 600 dmg + 75% of non-heroic target HP, there is really no need to code anything extra to accomodate the new OSOK.

    Furthermore, to be precise, the value "target's HP" should be the target's Current HP, not the maximum.

    I would also like to modify the proposal by adding a new suggestion regarding the Barrett and OSOK.

    Using a Barrett and this reworked OSOK should give a damage bonus of 25%, an energy cost increase of 50%, and a 4 range Line AOE originating from the target. It has always annoyed me that Monofilament Shot can be used with any weapon, but the ultra powerful Barrett Sniper Rifle does not penetrate enemies. Giving the Barrett a base AOE would be potentially game breaking, so limit it instead to the Barrett's intended owner, the AssMM. The short range of the AOE will prevent it from being too powerful (and on big fat enemies it will be almost negated due to the size of the model) but it will still be useful in many situations. It also adds that extra oomph that I think the currently suggested Barrett+OSOK combos really lack. A skill that requires a rare Weapon should be strong, and being able to kill a 4-length line segment of Zombies with 1 shot would be pretty cool. It would also synergize with Monofilament Shot, since the Marksman would need to line up his shots in order to best utilize this skill.
  11. FlintLckwood

    FlintLckwood New Member

    If you can tell me how I can identify who, where, and for what I received thanks, I will agree. So far it looks and functions like a second reputation. :EDIT: Ah, I see the intended idea, but it seems to only apply to the post that was thanked. Personally I still like posting the 'I agree' just because it updates the thread and you don't have to constantly relook, but thats me.

    Sir Galahad, I like the Barrett line effect idea.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Would rather One Shot, One Kill, was one kill, not 8 kills due to line AoE.

    Also it would be too similar to the Monofiliment ability. Last thing we want is to repeat the Pyromancer mistake of "Don't level Burst Fire, it's just a crappier version of Inferno!" and let it ride, as could well happen to AoE Barrett OSOKs.
  13. Blaqk
    • Development Team
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Shit you not, Lacus was running around one game Monoing with a crowbar.

    We should really restrict that.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    +5 Crowbar of Returning!
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'd rather we not do OSOK/Crit synergy if we're fiddling with the trees in such a manner. I mean, OSOK is basically a critical strike in and of itself, and making minor crits happen with standard attacks buffing your "make a critical strike happen" doesn't really make sense to me. Yeah, they're related to the same deal, but crit chance increases with level, not crit damage. I'd rather see it only be buffed by Concentration and Anticipation, considering that OSOK is something that you have to line up and choose carefully what you use it on.
  16. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    Yeah I was saying make crits be something like this:

    level 1: osok does 10% more damage, 10% chance for attacks (not osok) to deal 2x damage.
    level 1: osok does 20% more damage, 20% chance for attacks (not osok) to deal 2x damage.
    level 1: osok does 30% more damage, 30% chance for attacks (not osok) to deal 2x damage.

    Or using 5/10/15% for the osok part if crits are moved to sub.
  17. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    You are quick to forget they are not actually called Innate skills. By definition most arent even skills. Innate skill is just the name that stuck. Its more or less "One bonus per class." MM's "Innate skill" is actually his 15 vision, not the normal 10. Quick Aim was just something added randomly because Mono did full FF long ago, and it fucking killed everyone. So naturally players Qq'ed and quick aim was added for alternative leveling (for bad players) but it was Sniper Rifle. Then more players QQ'ed and it was made to work with every gun, and that opened up entire (bad) play styles based around it early game. Fast forward a few damn months, stinger added. Somewhere along the line someone decided to take SubMM, Quick Aim, and Stinger, and see what happened. And tada, modern subMM was born.


    Now, because I'm sick of having to bring it back up. I still think OSOK needs a buff. Balancing the skill around criticals has proved to be a mistake. When the skill designed to "Quickly dispatch high value targets" can only do so when either A: Your team has pumped it half way dead or B: You win the lucky number roulette, thats a functional design flaw. Don't even argue about Osok becoming OP in Recruit either. Almost everything is OP in recruit, thats basically the point, since its "beginner mode."

    I will repeat myself one last time, as I am quickly losing patience. Set OSOK to instantly kill any non-heroic target at "Master MM" and buff its base damages, at a Minimum. I would also stress OSOK deal additional damage based on boss health %, but I know thats a stretch to actually happen. This Scope vs Quick Aim vs Concentration vs Criticals debate can wait for another day, since clearly we arent reaching a fucking conclusion.
  18. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    OSOK instant killing non heroic target, can be controlled with concentration if you put concentration in "Bonus skill" slot, instead plain boring, not much useful scope.

    Simply, if you have non concentration point, you can't instantly kill non heroic target. However, if you do, you can. Quite simple and interesting already. And thats being smart assassin. Not "smart assassin never use QA". For this, i can correct you, "Real smart Assassin knows how to use mixture of both QA and Mono in appropriate situation" That requires fast decision making and can even save team from number of situations.
  19. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Thats it, I'm splitting the fucking thread.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I say that Smart Assassins don't use Quick Aim because... well... they don't. And it does have to go with the flavor of concentration and setting up your shots. Good Assassins are holed up in a position where 99% of the enemies coming at them are on a limited approach where they line up, and Monofiliment Cartridge gets insane damage done that makes OSOK look like a love tap.

    Other than the end of Chapter 1 Easy Company Gargoyle swarm, there isn't really a situation where a smart player can't arrange for his enemies to be lined up to be knocked down by one good Monofiliment Cartridge shot.

    Considering Monofiliment is flagged to hit on sight only, it also makes Scope a more decent passive to have, making sure you have that small bit of extra range on it, which in turn can mean hundreds of extra damage on it.

    With a Quick Aim I might kill 10 targets, burn a quarter to a half of a magazine. The Monofiliment Cartridge will net me 20 kills/damage, burns no ammo, gives me a stun on anything I don't outright kill, and thus helps set up AoE by clustering stuff together as the non-stunned pile around the stunned.

    I would LIKE if Mono could use Concentration. It means that level 3 Concentration and level 3 mono together would outright kill Stalkers, Devourers, Hulks, Immortals, and I think Huggers, as well as Gargoyles but hell I'm not someone that claims it's easy to tag Gargoyles with it. It's not like you'll be powering down Agrons necessarily with it, or even Slashers. Where as prior it wouldn't gun them down. I mean it would still require investing six talent points to be able to do it, and possibly skipping the potent effect of Anticipation or delaying OSOK ownage. But I think it's an interesting option to give.

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