Marksman Skill Discussion

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Lord NiteShade, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    At Master Marksman OSOK "lvl 3" it needs to OHK any Non-Heroic enemy, regardless of health. That would drastically increase the skills value without messing with its power against bosses. Note that the strongest Non-Heroic enemy is either going to be Brood Mother, Sentinel, or Agrons (depending on Perspective) none of which exceed 2k health.

    Also, it makes a neat counter for ADC'ed Juggernaut enemies, provided that the MM HAS MasterMM, and that he can see/kill the unit underneath the Nazara clones.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    They're not. AMM is underwhelming and SMM is a better scout than the dedicated scout class in a lot of ways.

    OSOK will be rebalanced.

    It's getting scooted to Tier 2.

    Clever players will take the time to do a "scanner sweep" by walking in a quick circle to check their surroundings. Its cone nature is hardly a limitation.


    Scope has air vision and with a little micro can outdo occulars.

    Concentration is staying in Subtlety to lend itself to the guerrilla fighter aspect of the class. Subtletly will largely be left alone once we put Critical Strike in. Assassination is the one that's going to be needing the most tweaking.

    PROPOSED FINAL CHANGELIST FOR THE MARKSMAN
    Speak now your objections or watch changes you don't like get made without your input.

    SUBTLETY
    • Scope replaced with Critical Strike.

    ASSASSINATION
    • Anticipation moved to Tier 1. Damage progression adjusted from 15/30 to 10/20/30.
    • Sniper Scope moved to Tier 2. Buffed to 5 and 10 bonus sight to make better use of Anticipation.
    • One Shot, One Kill reworked:
      OSOK [MM RIFLE] - 20 energy cost, 2 second cooldown
      Level 1 - 300 base damage, deals 1% current health damage to bosses
      Level 2 - 450 base damage, deals 1.5% current health damage to bosses
      Level 3 - 600 base damage, deals 2% current health damage to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies

      OSOK [BARRETT] - 40 energy cost, 5 second cooldown
      Level 1 - 600 base damage, deals 3% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies
      Level 2 - 800 base damage, deals 4% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies
      Level 3 - 1000 base damage, deals 5% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies
  3. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • Community Leader

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    Mm... It's nice to see that assassination Marksman will get number one priority on Barrett with changes like that.

    Question, will the percentage damage be dealt to bosses first (then the base damage) or the other way around?
  4. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    Why does the Barrett OSOK suck so badly? Yeah it's slightly more energy efficient but the damage output scales downward on a curve instead of linear like the M45.

    Level 1 M45 = 1500 damage over 10 seconds @ 100 Energy
    Level 2 M45 = 2250 damage ---
    Level 3 M45 = 3000 damage ---

    Level 1 Bar = 1200 damage over 10 seconds @ 80 Energy
    Level 2 Bar = 1600 damage ---
    Level 3 Bar = 2000 damage ---
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Because I'm not good at math. Blaqk, make it better. Lacus, the percentage is in addition to the base damage. Base first, then percentage.
  6. Yuey
    • Warden

    Yuey Warden

    Its a really bad progression with the Barret OSOK base damage. I would say something to the tune of 500/1000/1500 base damage would bring it more in line with the progression in the M45 OSOK. Since you're one-shotting most enemies already, the base damage is really only relevant against bosses and as such, where the % current health damage would put Barret OSOK over the M45 OSOK in nearly every circumstance.
  7. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    ASSASSINATION
    • Anticipation moved to Tier 1. Damage progression adjusted from 15/30 to 10/20/30.
    • Sniper Scope moved to Tier 2. Buffed to 5 and 10 bonus sight to make better use of Anticipation.
    • One Shot, One Kill reworked:
      OSOK [MM RIFLE] - 20 energy cost, 2 second cooldown
      Level 1 - 300 base damage, deals 1% current health damage to bosses
      Level 2 - 450 base damage, deals 1.5% current health damage to bosses
      Level 3 - 600 base damage, deals 2% current health damage to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies

      OSOK [BARRETT] - 40 energy cost, 5 second cooldown
      Level 1 - 750 base damage, deals 3% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies
      Level 2 - 1125 base damage, deals 4% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies
      Level 3 - 1500 base damage, deals 5% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies

    [hr]

    Eos - 100,000 Health

    M45 Results @ Oh Sock Level 3

    1st OSOK = 600 + 2000 = 2600 > 97400 Health
    2nd OSOK = 600 + 1984 = 2584 > 94816 Health
    3rd OSOK = 600 + 1896 = 2496 > 92320 Health
    4th OSOK = 600 + 1846 = 2446 > 89874 Health
    5th OSOK = 600 + 1797 = 2397 > 87477

    12523 Damage over 10 seconds @ 100 Energy

    --- 90,000 Damage Later ---

    Crescendo OSOK = 600 + 46 = 646 > 1674
    Climax OSOK = 600 + 33 = 633 > 1041
    Finale OSOK = 600 + 20 = 620 > 421

    1899 Damage over 6 seconds @ 60 Energy

    A volley of four OSOKs at the start of the fight will shave 10K health from Eos. It would be a good idea to just save up energy during Black Ops and expend it all on her during the first few seconds of the fight.


    [hr]


    Eos - 100,000 Health

    Barrett Results @ Oh Sock Level 3

    1st OSOK = 1500 + 5000 = 6500 > 93500
    2nd OSOK = 1500 + 4675 = 6175 > 87325

    12675 Damage over 10 seconds @ 80 Energy

    Barrett now does comparable DPS to the M45 against bosses with superior Energy Consumption. If you want the Barrett to be truly superior to the M45, then increase the boss damage by 1% per level.
  8. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Don't see the point of the Base damage of level 3 OSOK, unless its in addition to the % damage ot the bosses. Also the Barret OSOK needs to do less % of HP to bosses, 5% is a TON for Queen/Perses, even with being 5% of current HP, 5 OSOKs (assuming full non Int MM) will knock a maxed out queen down like 30-40K HP, even more if he does them in quick succession. If its intended for it to almost eclipse all but the opcomm for dps on bosses, then I understand.

    Scope in Tier 2 might as well be useless, I'd rather have the recon flare for me, more effective overall in the end.

    Is the general community going to get any input on this? I know the idea is sound, but more or less blindsiding them with "Hey we didn't like SMM, so we super buffed AMM and took away a semi crucial aspect of how all SMM's play", probably not going to go over well...

    My last main issue with Scope being swapped over to AMM, is AMM is HIGHLY limimted to what he gets out of scope. He only gets OSOK and maybe barret (SMM will still have priority over AMM anyhow). SMM gets the use out of Barret/Stinger/HMG/MM Rifle because he can actualy use their range to his advantage, as opposed to said range being more or less wasted most of the time.
  9. fox

    fox New Member

    Love how you intentionally left out my mention about looking 1-2 screens away...

    NVM if you want to boost scope to 5/10 range then make sure the vision given is a damn Cone, not frickin Line vision. A Cone of 60 degrees will take 6-7 attitude adjustments to complete a full sweep, while a line vision will take at least 30 attitude adjustments to complete 1 sweep (assuming line width = 4 and 20 sight)

    I can foresee a lot of death to nydus...


    Blaqk's values are great, however imo the base damage can be raised a bit more to match current dps during boss fight (provided we're buffing). See below:

    [img=800x500]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3638/foxosokcalc.jpg[/img]

    Also, note how Blaqk's calc shows that the OSOK damage revert back to base damage as the fight goes on. If that is not the design intent, will we consider using the MaxHP of the boss instead of current HP?

    EDIT: Bah took too long to reply, got some interesting post since Blakq's last post. Can't be bothered to redo the table atm, will leave it for discussion.
  10. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Ops

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Operations and Web

    The tooltip on Oh Sock is going to cause nightmares.
  11. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    @Arcane: The base damage is so that the OSOKs are capable of killing bosses. You know, so it lives up to its name. Scope scooting to Tier 2 means that it solves your issue of 1 Scope SMM. It also synergizes OSOK, Anticipation, and Master Marksman, considering that the Marksman's sight range will be, at the very least, greater than 9. Finally, yes, the community will be getting input on this. The Marksman details are being hammered out in Black Ops before being presented to the general public.

    @Reaper: OSOKs are the only thing I'm comfortable giving instant kill. Scope will just be a massive sight range increase in a cone. Considering bumping it up to 6/12 from 5/10.

    @fox: I apologize for missing one of your points. I'm doing more than one thing at once, and it wasn't intentional. Either way, OSOKing things that are several screens away implies team synergy, which is good. Scope is far from useless, however, as it ensures that he's capable of seeing enemies for several range before they come within the minimum distance of Anticipation/Master Marksman.

    PROPOSED FINAL CHANGELIST FOR THE MARKSMAN
    ROUND 2

    SUBTLETY
    • Scope replaced with Critical Strike.

    ASSASSINATION
    • Anticipation moved to Tier 1. Damage progression adjusted from 15/30 to 10/20/30.
    • Sniper Scope moved to Tier 2. Buffed to 5 and 10 bonus sight to make better use of Anticipation.
    • One Shot, One Kill reworked:
      OSOK [MM RIFLE] - 20 energy cost, 2 second cooldown
      Level 1 - 300 base damage, deals 1% current health damage to bosses
      Level 2 - 450 base damage, deals 1.5% current health damage to bosses
      Level 3 - 600 base damage, deals 2% current health damage to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies

      OSOK [BARRETT] - 40 energy cost, 5 second cooldown
      Level 1 - 750 base damage, deals 4% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies
      Level 2 - 1125 base damage, deals 5% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies
      Level 3 - 1500 base damage, deals 6% current health to bosses, instantly kills nonheroic enemies

    A note for tooltips: The learn tooltip will display the MM Rifle values, as those are the most common, and make mention of the Barrett's different stats, but not list them. Upon equipping the Barrett, the tooltip on the command card will change to reflect the differences, but the learn menu's tooltip will remain the same.

    That is indeed the design intent. I don't want a team full of marksmen being able to kill the boss in a literal x amount of shots. 4 Marksmen would be able to kill any boss in 25 seconds or less if they went mass OSOK, and they'd be able to do that even faster if they were OSOKing with Barretts.
  12. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Some issues:

    fox's chart reads crit adding 30% damage, but it it 30% chance for +50%.

    Also, Tart (8k) HP is the example, which is actually a poor choice.
    Tart is the very first boss in EC.
    Erebos has up to 23k, Queen has up to 180k or so.

    In AC, you got Demeter at around 11k, Cronus around 60-70k, Cerb at 12k, IVAX at 78k, Perses at 180k.

    Sec you got Deimos at 9k, Naz at 13k, Apop at 19k, Athena at something, Hades1 at 60k, Hades 2 at 130k.

    So if you take the % value vs a bigger boss than Tart (pretty much anything), the damage ends up very much *extreme*.

    Also, insta kill of nonheroic is very much too powerful on Infestors (very high HP non heroic), Devastators, buffed up Agrons and the like. It needs to be lvl 3 only for both weapons. Otherwise you find a barrett early game and lvl1 osok everything with impunity.
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Barrett OSOKs feature twice the energy cost and more than twice the cooldown. The ability to drop nonheroics at level 1 is fine.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    That and I'm surprised you're against it Ghost. Mostly because when Delta was announced and such, there was a lot of complaints (Mostly NA and EU players, I'd say a 40/60 split) about losing the ability to insta-kill Infestors and such to "Save ammo".

    And I do admit that it is something which makes a bit of sense and is a nod to NM more than anything. As it currently stands there are Nightmare games where you have to OSOK three times, for 60 energy over 6 seconds, to kill a single Agron. Considering this talent is meant to do nothing else but put down high value targets in a mob, it's kinda sad that it fails so hard at putting down the targets you'd want to put down.

    As it currently stands in a Nightmare game as an Assassination Marksman I am "Mono all the things!" and use OSOK maybe 1 time for every 12 I monofiliment.
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    It seems you've caught me, Arc. Indeed, the OSOKs of tomorrow are KMS's spiritual successors - just less gimmicky and in a much more appropriate context. After all, it is the job of the marksman to save ammo. To quote the Scout Sargeant Cyrus, one careful shot can do the work of thousands.
  16. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I'd still be tempted to say up it to a level 2 req at least.

    The other thing is, why have a base damage for Barrett OSOK if it deals set damage to boss and non boss? Unless you are looking at using the higher of 2 values per hit.
  17. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Osok currently fails in its main task: Dispatching high value targets. Because of this, players wait until enemies are injured enough to "finish off" this is both selfish and wasteful. The "osok of the future" needs to be amazing at its task of eliminating high value targets from great range. It can do something no other skill can. Safely, quickly, and without risk of friendly fire eliminate high priority threats. However, its unanimously agreed the current form is too weak. Hell it cant even kill Huggers in one shot at lvl 3 osok on high sr nms.

    For the above reasons and more, I support the "instant kill non heroics" at Master MM level. I do think you should be wary of % based damage. It's tricky to implement properly and in the past its proven to cause many an overpowered bug.

    Edit: Fox your chart was goddamn gigantic. Tv =/= Computer monitor. I shrunk that beast down to about 2/3 size.
  18. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The AssMM's primary role is single target nuke damage. At current, he kinda sucks at it, unless he gets a crit, in which case he's marginally better. This will make him suck less on a consistent basis, in addition to giving a hard counter to NOTD's bad habit of throwing wads of hitpoints at players for boss battles.
  19. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    That and I don't recall people really complaining about the Assassination Marksman back in the days of 11k OSOKs against bosses.
  20. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    When was this. I just remember the days of Osok dealing flat 150/300/500 Against units, no crits, no antic bonus. It worked out only because agrons were roughly 700 hp.

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