Marksman OSOK and T3

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by ArcanePariah, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I'd really prefer we keep the percentage damage for the AssMM. He's very powerful vs. bosses, but that's his purpose. I'd like to see that remain. Toning down the percentage I'm all for, but outright removal is not something I want to see happen. He's the only character in the game that is capable of dealing that kind of damage right now (aside from Order Flamer, who is non-lethal), and I like that unique aspect.
  2. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    What about removing the cooldown from osok and giving it a pretty long cast time that, if interrupted, cancels the shot? Currently osok has a 2 second cooldown and about .5 second cast time. Give it instead a 3.5 second cast time and no cooldown. This effectively reduces the marksman's boss damage by 40%, gives him a drawback to osok (has to remain motionless for maximum damage output), makes osok less spammable while on the move, and still keeps the overwhelming damage per shot that is so clearly what the assmm is designed to do. Plus, in my mind it makes more sense from a lore standpoint according to the osok tooltip. He doesn't put the gun on a different setting, he loads a specialized ammunition. This shouldn't be overly taxing on the gun itself, and in fact it means that the gun which is able to quick aim is only firing once in 3.5 seconds. However, there is time for him to both load his special ammo and take careful aim.
  3. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Interesting thought, I'd maybe do it a bit differently:
    OSOK becomes a toggle where the MM has reduced MS and fires his weapon much slower (once every 2.5 seconds, this can either be done as a set new AS on the weapon or as a modifier of +2.1 or so, which is added on top of base AS, so Bar fires slower than M45). Being in this stance drains energy each time he fires (not sure if feasible to code, maybe make it flat high energy drain).
    Each shot deals the same damage that OSOK deals currently.

    Going into toggle/leaving toggle takes 1 second each to prevent going in, firing and going out. Toggle itself costs no energy.

    It also makes OSOK require ammo which it doesn't currently and is strange and it makes FMJ more useful for the MM in that he can fire in his OSOK stance faster.

    Quickaim is disabled in this stance (though maybe you want to keep it enabled in that it costs even more energy but allows burst OSOK fire?)
  4. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Longer casting time is going to make the Marksman bait for Slashers and Devourers.

    Unless a specialized version can be made for Heroics where it has an extended cast time when used on them and the normal when used on everything else.

    Something else that can be looked at is his damage getting reduced with repetitive use. The percentage based damage stays but his own gets reduced that if the Marksman keeps on spamming the only thing that will be doing damage is the percentage.
  5. Archangel

    Archangel Well-Known Member

    just give it a longer cd. stops the spamming and makes the boss fights longer instead of seconds.

    realistically it would make sense to "take the time" to steady for a pure kill shot so i would generally agree with the cast time increase but their are instances that movement is vital like pers's firewave circles. Granted osoking in there is a crap shoot but it can b managed with the way it is. If so that this ends up being the route, make the osok interrupt-able so that u can make a move if u must like ozy said. although i still think a cd should exist. something like 2 sec cast with 3 sec cd.
  6. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    Make it cost ten rounds to use. This will make it more skill based because the more skilled players will be able to get that perfect reload and will be rewarded for their skill whereas other players will have to wait a longer period. Plus it allows MM to get off at least 3 shots before they have any kind of wait period. I think this may be the best solution because the amount of dmg done will be more related to skill.
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    Or the same property that the Jumps on pathfinders. 5 max at a time and has a slow recovery in quantity.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Or we could just increase its cooldown. If the cooldown is increased, then it'll still be usable for picking off Slashers and Agrons in a kiting situation and all of that other shit, and make it more skill reliant rather than mindlessly spamming it. Yeah, there should be a bit of a delay, but it's already there and doesn't need to be increased.

    OSOK's design is perfectly fine, it's just the implementation that needs small tweaking. We don't need to introduce a whole new system to a staple ability because it's a little too strong at this point in time. If it takes a small change, then it should be a small change. We really shouldn't be trying to over-complicate things.
  9. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    I like the idea mentioned of making osok work more like jumps. This way you can take down several enemies quickly when you need to, but the overall affect vs bosses would be a reduced. This would be better than flat cd imo.

    The toggle idea could be interesting too, but prob too much of a change for this point in the game.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Honestly? Almost every ability could be done that way, with a wide variety of justifications. However, the bottom line is that it's not actually necessary to do it in that way because standard cooldowns are fine as they are. Demo mines have that system because they'd be a huge pain in the ass to use without it. Pathfinder jumps have that system because he's a non-tank class doing close combat stuff and he actually needs to be able to use them in quick succession.

    The Marksman? He doesn't have those issues. He's incredibly long range and the ability is meant for single targets. Yeah, it'd be nice if it had a counter system, but by no means does it need it and I'm really not interested in retooling everything the fuck else to have a counter system because it'd be slightly more appropriate.
  11. Seeky

    Seeky New Member

    How about having charges like Jumps, (5 max charges, 1 regens every ~15 seconds) but when the charges run out, the energy cost of OSOK increases to 40.
  12. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    True, it's not necessary, but neither is it necessary to lengthen the cd on OSOKs. It's still one of the slowest and at the same time squishiest classes out there and I personally (and selfishly) feel that things should stay as they are. Glass cannon without limits.

    However, due to there being a sizable population of the BO thinking there should be changes, I will give way and continue with my proposed change.

    1st nowhere was it mentioned in proposing that OSOK have a countersystem that the cooldown had to be removed and it become as rapid a damage release talent as PF jumps are.

    The suggestion for it to have both its current CD + added countersystem is so that the Assassination MM stay within its role,
    that of quick burst DPS on bosses, and priority target elimination (that is saving the team time and ammo in the termination of the bigger enemies), which it's currently not.

    This is because right now, it is working not just as a priority target removal unit, saving the team time and ammo on the heftier foes,
    but also working as a quick means to take out anything else you can spare energy on as well, like a roach, mutalisk, every immortal and every hulk you come across

    (while what I mentioned is extreme, it is not that big an exaggeration).

    With regards to bosses, it is currently working as a source of constant continuous sustained sizable damage,

    and not as the intended short term burst DPS, after which the team's actual DPS units will be able to do their roles.

    Having a countersystem for OSOK will make the MM think more on what he/she should be OSOKing as there is a down time if you use it wantonly (currently thinking 5 real world seconds to regain 1 charge).

    There will be no fear of running dry of osoks however, but ONLY IF it were to focus on just what it's supposed to take out with osok, big priority targets while still being able to perform rapid successions of the skill during the points where droves of high hp targets appear in waves. The rest of the time, the hefty energy pool will then have to be used for his other energy consuming skills (Mono/Q-aim).

    This means that if the MM sticks to his role, then it will continue being able to do that role
    while at the same time helping introduce people to the currently underused mono.

    It is also why Kith's proposed increased CD will not work on a kite and holdout situation. This is because while the MM will likely not lose any efficiency when defending himself, the team's time and ammo consumption efficiency will suffer.

    This is because without a means to quickly switch to and eliminate priority targets one after the other, the team would be unloading ammo on the surviving durable targets (which do not always come 1 at a time during waves, but also in droves, especially in the harder difficulties + storylines), after which the marksman would either

    A.)osok it anyway after it's longer cd has finished.
    This would waste the ammo used by the team on the target because they were useless. The target died to osok anyway after all the effort.


    B.) the MM can decide not to osok the target and let the team continue wasting ammo on the target till its dead.

    A no-win situation because either way, OSOK would be behaving as it had in the old days when it didn't 1 shot kill targets.

    The MM will have 'those issues' if a longer CD is given to OSOK. His role is to take out the priority targets quickly, saving time and ammo for the team. This means taking those out BEFORE they even get into shooting range of the team if you intend to be efficient at your job in keeping your team efficient. The moment tough targets that can be one shot killed (meaning sans titans) are coming into range of the team, the mm is becoming inefficient with osok.

    With regards to bosses, a counter system will prevent the marksman from being able to pull off what it does now and is AP's main issue with the talent, which is osok a boss continuously during the whole boss fight. Something which currently (barring outside forces) is only limited by how fast you can command the mm to osok (shift trick or otherwise) and your energy pool, which has given rise to the 'almost no dps other than osok mms' teams.

    It's gotten to the point actually, that AssMMs are getting priority number 1 for ArcReactors.

    With this proposed change, it doesn't matter how high an MM's energy regen is or his energy pool. It will stay within it's designated role and not exceed it into the realm of primary, and sometimes only, team's dps on bosses.
  13. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Isn't the problem that OSOK is getting to effective vs boss targets, i.e. Enemies that do not die in 1 shot from OSOK 3?

    Because if this really is the problem, wouldn't it just be easier to have a (stackable) buff applied to an enemy once it gets OSOK'd, making it take less damage from OSOK for a couple of seconds afterwards (around 5 ~ 10), making spamming it on a single target highly ineffective.

    It wouldn't be noticeable if you're just using OSOK on high priority, non heroic targets (such as Agrons etc.), allowing it to maintain its functionality, but also fixes the problem that it is too strong against bosses.

    The only problem is I have no idea how such a buff would be coded onto an enemy.
  14. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    Just re-name the One Shot One Kill to Snipe, and revert back to where it was. But make "Snipe" only can kill NM slasher one shot with T3. No more than that. Alpha is freaking easy, and has tons of DPS classes to back up Marksman.

    Apollo? You have CE to back up ur DPS up to like x2.

    The reasons you people gave me are all just User Errrrrrors.

    "Alas, we go back to the time when Marksmen only OSOK enemies that will die when he shoots them with it, though mostly Agrons on the verge of death."

    "Also the whole "selfish play" thing where OSOK was used to kill wounded things rather than actually kill things to save ammo, natch."

    ^ OMG.
    Its just USER ERROR, nor game's fault, system fault or any in game itself. You can't balance the game based on ONLY User errors.
  15. Jercy

    Jercy Well-Known Member

    Unfortantly that has been happening a lot lately. Just look at the reasons given to remove the GG from the game. I guess playing games with skilled games has become a thing of the past.
  16. Maniac

    Maniac Member

    Well, i see the point.

    And maybe, nuffing (i wouldn't say Nuff but for people who just started playing notd or who haven't experienced MM before buff, it is nuff) is not a good idea, accoring to D3 Attack Speed nuff.

    If thats the case, I rather buff certain monsters, not touching current skills on Marksman.
  17. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • Community Leader

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    Can we do something about the effect of Seth's polarity on one shot one kill? With master marksman you could deal more than 20000 damage to Seth every two seconds or so, I don't think operations Commando or arms Assault could get anywhere as close in terms of damage.
  18. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Hmm... although the old OSOK was more skill based in that you had to time when you OSOK (many did greed shots, last hitting, and not really saving much ammo), the old OSOK simply scaled poorly. It utterly dominated Pubs with their <1k Agrons, but did ok in Nightmare. The main issue I had with the old OSOK was that it was borderline worthless against bosses, it was dead last in terms of DPS vs a boss, compared to every other DPS class in the game. 600 Damage for 20 energy over 2-3 seconds (Cooldown + time to click on target) was abysmal. You barely made a dent in any final boss on Nightmare (all over 160k HP, as high as 250k+ for Hades 1 and 2). By the time you ran dry on energy or the boss was dead, you MIGHT have inflicted 10k damage.

    Now buffing the base damage and removing the % scaling goes right back to that old problem. Even if we buffed the damage to kill a max SR slasher, it still will do badly vs high SR bosses ( max SR Queen is 190K IIRC).

    Lowered the cooldown does introduce skill in that you must time when you fire, knowing you can't just follow up right after if something else appears. The main thing I want to get away from is just spamming it, because in both old and new osok, you just spam it, there is little consequence to spamming it (energy being a non factor, most teams today run energy support, either SS con, Field Engie, FA Medic with restore spam as needed, or GS Chem, and most high end MM having max int to help as well).
  19. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Then things like poor_noob(?) literally One Shot, One Killing Ivax would never happen.

    On a more thoughtful note, I do see a problem with him doing 20k damage per shot.

    800 * 4 = 3200.

    Lets say seth had 200k hp for the ease of calculating, and he used a sniper rifle. 1.5% of that is 3000.
    Even if he had a barret, that would be 4000 from the %, and 4160 from the OSOK portion. The only plausible way he could get 20k, is if the damage boost affects the % damage, in which case a Barret would do 16k, and marksman, 12k.

    Which magically fits your description of 20k damage.

    Assumptions made:
    Fully stacked One Shot, One Kill level 3 with just a Marksman Rifle or a Barret.

    Fix is simple, have the Percent Damage dealt to the enemy's HP just not be affected by damage boosting things. The same problem is also present when you use Smite, albeit, smite isn't nearly as spammable.
  20. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    So everyone is in favor of the Tier 3 retaining its one shot kill effectiveness to kill off priority targets in all modes mainly Nightmare but shouldn't work purely on damage versus bosses because then its useless.

    A stackable damage, either pure damage or life % based versus bosses can be added with each shot becoming even more fatal.

    But taking this on a whole new perspective, why not make the % based damage work with Concentration when it jumps trees? The higher the stacks of Concentration the more health % damage it will do versus Heroic. That way in a fight the Marksman will have to ensure he can get his stacks building to deal the most damage he can. It will be like he is scanning his enemy for weak spots and given enough time he will learn where it will hurt the most to shoot. To balance it out, when OSOK is used on a Heroic 10 stacks or all of them are used making the Marksman having to wait.

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