Major Update - Incapacitate Mechanic Replacing Player Lives

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Ability, Jun 9, 2014.

  1. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    This was something NiteShade brought up and I felt was a strong idea for us to implement. We are looking to replace the current Player Lives system with an Incapacitate mechanic. This works like many FPS games (e.g. Battlefield/Gears of War) where another player would have to revive your player. The player has a fixed window of revival (e.g. 60 seconds) and that window drops as the player's rating/game difficulty increases. The work on this will be done by Miracle, Tristan and I while the core development team (Kithrixx/ArcanePariah/Commlink) focuses on NOTD 2. Key development reason for doing this is to help improve new player learning and retention.

    Rationale:
    - Incapacitate is a more intuitive mechanic than Player Lives
    - Reinforces teamwork by having teammates revive incapacitated players
    - Keeps new players in the game longer

    Additional background from NiteShade's original post:
    Proposed Implementation
    Incapacitate Revive Window:

    - Recruit Mode: 120 seconds (player will automatically revive after 2 mins if below 500 XP)
    - Normal Mode: 30 seconds
    - Hardened Mode: 20 seconds
    - Veteran Mode: 10 seconds
    - No Incapacitate in Nightmare

    Revive Mechanic
    - When a player dies, another player needs to Left/Right click on the fallen Marine to revive. Revive is a 4 second channeling spell. Players cannot attack/move while reviving a fallen player. Revive can be cancelled by manually executing any command. Once a Marine is revived successfully, its health is set to 50%.
    - All players have a Revive cap of 5 Revives in Recruit
    - All players have a Revive cap of 1 Revive in Normal/Hardened/Veteran

    Potential Issues to Address:
    1. Do we have the right models to display a fallen Marine for all classes
    2. What about Pets? Will we see less pets and how will it affect its Medal
    3. Any areas for abuse?

    Please let me know your thoughts. This is a first draft and we'll work out the details together over the next few days. This includes ironing out all details, addressing any loopholes and working out any unforeseen implementation challenges. This is a major gameplay change and we want to ensure that it has a long-term positive impact to NOTD before implementing it.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  2. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    I disagree with proposed implementation. Here's what I'd rather see:

    Recruit Mode = 60 second bleedout
    Normal/Hardened/Vet = 30/20/10 second bleed-out
    Nightmare = No second chances

    The purpose of this is to prevent new players from dying to Tartarus and never learning anything, not to make Nightmare and Normal modes easier.
  3. MissHumpz
    • Event Coordinator
    • Community Leader

    MissHumpz NOTD Staff: Event Coordinator & Amazing Amazer

    How is nightmare mode easier with this concept?
    Players actually have lives in nightmare in current set up.
  4. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    2000 rating player has 35 second window to be revived. In nightmare he'd still have a 17.5 second window to be revived. That's actually a considerable amount of time. Even a player with a perfect 2500 rating would have a 5 second window to revive, which could be exploited by tank classes and quick-reflexed allies. This also further encourages tanking rating to have a longer revive window. Nightmare should be a nightmare.
  5. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Perhaps Nightmare can have a -80% revive window effect. A 1600 Rating new player would have an 11 second revive window. Am also fine for every 100 Rating to reduce the revive window by 8 seconds.

    To minimize Rating tanking, can calibrate end game XP gain further with Player Rating.
  6. Stereo
    • Development Team

    Stereo Paper Boy

    Instead of making it so all classes across the board have the same revive time, why not bump up non-medic classes to 5 second channel time, whereas a medic has a 3 second channel time? Or maybe a four and it decreases to three if say the incapped player were weaved, or restored.
    • I'll drink to that! I'll drink to that! x 1
  7. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    this sounds like a good idea....the whole concept of it anyway. Honestly lives are a handicap....the way I see it anyway. Not entirely sure how I could explain my philosophy on it...still a fairly new player. what nite pointed out as far as models for incaps that would be I think the brunt of the work. Originaly, the only "hero" models that are available for incap is Raynor, Swann, and Stetman models and NOTD2 has radically different ones.

    I also agree with the "no second chances" in NM. to me if youre getting into those then you need to be smart enough to understand the power of mobs/ major enemies and not get hit.

    my only question is this:
    how will MOH change? to get it will it change to something like no team members getting incaped through the whole game?
  8. Foehammer
    • Donator

    Foehammer Well-Known Member

    Would channeling the revive stop the countdown timer or will the timer still run while channeling the revive?
  9. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    moh wont change at all if read that corectly. no 2nd chance in nm means there wont be any incapacitated stage in nm games. you get to 0% youre dead.
  10. Grevious

    Grevious Member

    I meant more for non nm games. But I suppose to change it to suit incap would make getting it in nm simple with a decent team
  11. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    I also extremely disagree with this affecting nm games. It is too much of an advantage to better players, even if the window is only 12 seconds. I can see the rationale of implementing this for pub games, and maybe even normal games, to make it to where the new player doesn't lose his 5 lives in the first 10 minutes of the game and then rq forever when he finds out he can't get revived. That rationale quickly fades when you talk about nm games though, because those players don't exist in nm games.

    If I'm in a nm game with some guy who keeps dying, sure I might put some risk behind reviving someone once or twice, but when that number climbs, no rational player is going to risk their life for someone they know is just going to die again. Sure if he's right in the middle of the team that's one thing. But how often do ppl die like that? More often or not they wander away from the team and eat it. Anyone here plan on running to some random dead guy to try to revive him when he's nowhere near the team? Maybe with mobcon or smm, but other than that it's not worth the risk.
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    My proposal is:
    2 minute timer for Recruit
    40 second timer for Normal
    20 second timer for Veteran
    5 second timer for Nightmare

    "Extra Life" count is reworked to not be lives, but incapacitations. Players will flat-out die if they run out.
    Non-medic classes revival takes 6 seconds.
    Medic revival takes 3 seconds.
    Earning the Lifesaving Medal reduces revival time by 1 second.

    This will keep things reasonably difficult for Nightmare and give plenty of time for other modes.
  13. ChuckWing

    ChuckWing Member

    I doubt you'd have to worry about rating tanking also. People are too prideful to tank their rating.
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Oh, and on that note? All players should get pets. Period. The 500 xp barrier is silly and has been silly for the last forever.
  15. TheWolf
    • Donator

    TheWolf Surgeon of Death

    Isnt that already a thing? pretty sure i read somewhere in changelog that pets dont require minimum xp anymore.
    Im fine with 'revives' for any non nm mode. but for nm lets just stick to a DiD mode. (in case you dont know what that means: Dead is Dead)
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
  16. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    All dead players already get pets.

    No second chances in nightmare.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Shows how often I've been playing with newbies. That's good, then.
  18. MissHumpz
    • Event Coordinator
    • Community Leader

    MissHumpz NOTD Staff: Event Coordinator & Amazing Amazer

    Please excuse my silly question(s),

    When I go to revive someone, that will pause their bleeding out time? so if I catch them with 2 seconds left on their bleeding time, and my revive time is 4-5 seconds, they won't die on me mid revival?
    And if I were to cancel my revive, the bleeding out timer would start to decrease on the incapacitated person again?

    Also I'ma just put my 2 cents right here.
    Nightmare doesn't need incapacitation to exist. Plenty of players beat nightmare now with the whole team still alive and get (farm) their moh medal.
    I support the idea that Nightmare should be have the if you die, you're dead concept.

    Nightmare is supposed to be the HARDEST difficulty. And at the moment its a joke. Don't give it another reason to be easier.
    New players are getting nightmare wins on alpha, sec and survival before they even beat it on the normal difficulty, which bothers me.
  19. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Okay. No Incapacitate in Nightmare.

    If you try to revive someone with 2 seconds left, they will still die. Revive window keeps on ticking even if revive is being channeled on target.
  20. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    That's going to get annoying. Especially since Inception influences the timescale of things differently, so the PsiOps, the allied players, and the revive meter will all be influenced at different rates, unless otherwise corrected.

    I guess you could argue it's the players fault for not getting there sooner. No revive in Nightmare should be fine. Most players capable of farming nightmare dont have lives, opting for high rating for the credits/exp bonuses. And even among those that do, most of the things that kill you will cut through lives anyways (Bane/Beastlings, slashers, devourers, ailments, boss spells, friendly fire, etc).

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