Limiting Player Classes

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Kith, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Hey so because you guys have a bad habit of jumping to conclusions and not reading the thread properly, the "hard cap" that I proposed here in the first post isn't actually what we agreed upon. An alternative was proposed (viewable here) and my mind was changed and everyone was super happy about it and that's what we're going with. The proposal is no longer what is detailed below.

    I notice that I tend to preface a lot of my proposal topics with "Kith has been busy" in some form or another, and that's boring, so let's switch it up and say "Kith has been in a coma for the past few days and I'm the parasite controlling his unconscious body".

    Yeah, that sounds good.

    Anyways, so the issue of class stacking was brought up to me by some concerned dudes, and I really started considering the effect that not limiting player classes has on NOTD. If you're confused about what I mean, I'm talking about having multiple types of the same class. Multiple Technicians, Pathfinders, Psi Ops, Engineers, so on and so forth. Much cheese comes from having multiples of these individuals, and I think limiting the amount of classes per game would go over well. To wit:

    Rifleman and Medic - Unlimited
    Assault/Flamethrower/Technician, Recon, Marksman, Demo/FO/Chem Expert - 2 per game
    Engineer/Pathfinder, Commando/Psi Ops - 1 per game
    Randoms are exempt from this cap and will function as they do now

    My reasoning behind this is that it's MUCH easier to balance classes. Aftermath did the same thing, and it was immediately evident as to why. The "veteran" classes were much more powerful, but not without their weaknesses, and required support from other classes to cover those weaknesses. However, in NOTD:SCII, you can simply stack those same classes over and over and make it so their strengths are simply too great to overcome the weaknesses.

    An example is the Forward Observer, who, on his own, requires protection while he drops artillery barrages. But if you get six Forward Observers... well, what is going to get that close? The Arms Assault is a very strong source of DPS, and is VERY nice to have in a bossfight because he can lock down said boss. He is, however, slow, and requires people to watch his back while he does his thing. So what happens when you get more than two? Everything dies, bosses don't move, and the game becomes a cakewalk.

    TF2 does the same thing in capping classes. You can only have so many Snipers, so many Engineers, so on and so forth. If you could have as many as you want, well... let me tell you a story. I once got on a server that was running a "capture the point" style game. The entire defending team was made out of Engineers. I joined, set up my stuff, and found that I could fire my gun forever from any point in the defending chamber because there were so many dispensers. I never dropped below 50% health, thanks to the constant healing, despite being attacked constantly by Soldiers and Heavies. Two of the teammates had Wranglers, using their Level 3 Sentry Rockets to knock back Ubercharged enemies that were aiming to destroy the nest. Spies came and went, quickly murdered by a horde of wrench-wielding Texans, usually never getting the chance to drop a single Sapper.

    An hour of solid effort by the enemy team, and they never managed to kill a single Sentry, or even reach the point. It was a completely hopeless game. An admin came online and witnessed the whole thing, usually laughing. He decided to change the game to standard TF2 caps after that round, and so it went. The next game was MUCH more fair, as the teams actually had to work around their teammates, rather than compounding the strengths so much that any challenge was completely eclipsed.

    So that's my story, and my proposal. I really think that it will improve the quality of NOTD, because it will encourage much more teamwork and basically force variety.
  2. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Hm, I think you will get a lot of flack from people in pubs as newer players in a pub will *have* to play rifle/medic due to class caps.

    Or it will turn people who would normally never use the random button to use it to get a class that's already "full"

    I think keep recruit mode as is and maybe place limits on vet+ only.
    You could even turn the whole thing into a different story, say you cannot gain certain medals if you are stacking up on one/two classes.

    Though really the only mode where I seriously think it should be 1 player per class including randoms is survival, where shit gets abused because people can and they are only in it for the credits.

    On the whole, I'm fairly ambivalent about class limits and think it only makes sense in certain scenarios.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I'm okay with the idea of class limits but this needs more discussion. As a starting point, limiting all classes to a max of 3 (except Rifleman/Medic) is fine. For a lower limit, need more inputs.

    I would also remove Random's ability to bypass class limits if this was done - to minimize the wrong incentives and focus on team play.
  4. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I think a limit of 2 is actually more useful than 3, as you rarely need more than 2 of a class (class, not class type) unless something funky is going on (i.e. Tech spark rotation for perm mob/boss control and the like)

    I agree that randoms should not bypass the limits. I am not sure how enforcable the limits would be however if several people click the same class/random at the same time.

    In terms of which classes to exempt, recon is one of the classes where having a lot isn't that much more powerful (outside of the stacking supply stations and reaper drones). The simple thing to do though would be to disallow more than 1 supply station from affecting a given unit.

    On the whole, its usually stun locking which is the real issue behind class stacking. And to be fair, with sufficient numbers of any class/tree you could do it. Say 3 riflemen rotating repulse stuns, assault with blood frenzy, medic with mind blast, mm with monofilament etc. Perhaps thats something to look into more than putting a set limit on classes in the first instance?
  5. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Riflemen rotating Repulse is more difficult than it sounds. I've run test games with multiple Surv Rofls instructed to do exactly that, and it was significantly more difficult to pull off than one would imagine. The same goes for Nanomeds - even though Nanoshock is a tier 1 ability, you would need at least four to reliably rotate and permastun a boss, which is half the team. Even though these two classes have stuns available to them and are technically capable of permastunning things, the management of the rotations and the loss of DPS that it would require is simply not worth it.

    The reason I'm suggesting limiting the classes is because they have DPS and disables available to them, or simply overwhelming power. Two Assaults rotating Blood Frenzy can't technically permastun a boss, but they can shred it while it's stumbling towards them, and the combination of damage and disable is usually more than enough to deal with anything. A single Marksman with Monofilament Cartridge is incredibly powerful in any campaign, let alone two. Two Order Flamers can wreak havoc with double Smite, shaving off chunks of a boss's hitpoints at a time. Two FOs, well... two FOs.

    I agree that Recons are actually not that big of a deal in terms of class stacking, but... it's mostly that I just don't want to break sequence. :E
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    The way the survival farmers on EU play it is that all rifles/techs share control with one guy who then goes on to control all 3 of them to rotate spark/repulse for GoTB and other stuff

    Takes the coordination required out of the skill
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    I'm with the 2 limit with the exception of the primary 3 classes (Assault, Medic, Rifleman).

    I envy how they you guys are able to trust each other with that. I've proposed these kinds of tactics before in NA and have always been met with NOPE.JPGs.

    Glad to know it works.
  8. Miracle
    • Development Team
    • CN/TW Liaison

    Miracle NOTD Staff: Assistant of many things

    It's a nice idea having each class limit to two players, but it will also mean the end of 'fun games', for example the occasional game where everyone plays as an Engineer...
  9. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The major problem that I have with said "fun games" is that they're basically effortless, and a mockery of NOTD's mechanics. A team of eight Combat Engineers is just disgusting. Less so now that the X-1 has been adjusted to be balanced, but... melting a boss in seconds with octuple Overdrive and having a horde of robots to tank anything that comes the player's way, in addition to a cheap and spammable mob stun?

    I don't think that's the way the game was meant to be played.
  10. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    This touches on a VERY sensitive topic in gaming right now, and requires a great deal of thought. I know Kith may not be aware of this (but I have a feeling he does keep up with things), but to summary: Blizzard did the same thing in Diablo 3 and they are getting SHREDDED (People are outright mocking the developers personally on the D3 forums) for telling gamers how to play the game. Now obviously Diablo is much more high profile and most definitely has a different mindset behind it, and very different expectations, but both are still RPG's with toons/skills/gear.

    On one hand, a game is designed by a developer with a goal in mind. However on the other, players feedback has to be taken into account because they often shape the game (NotD being a case in point, a RPG set inside a RTS game).

    I am not arguing one way or another, just offering a word of warning based on the very ugly results of developer and player visions clashing (Not kidding, the D3 forums make me sick, the pure amount of hate/vitrol is unreal and has forced Blizzzard into a near siege mentality, most of the community staff took a 5 day vacation and now the forums have turned into a venomous pool, I can explain later if you want).
  11. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Hence my post about being ambivalent and mayve restrict medals/xp/creds based on class choices
  12. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    Adding class limits leans toward less cheesy tactics by spamming one classes skills in any situation. it also leans toward building stronger teams and working toward medals.

    I believe that Kith's idea will make for a stronger and more adaptive player base.
  13. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    It's the lesser of evils - class limits. Another option is to significantly reduce xp/rating and/or disable medal gain if a game has crossed a class count threshold. Thoughts?
  14. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Well, it leaves the "fun games" where people go multiples of the classes there and leaves the restrictions where they are to promote better balance. I like the idea, but the (minor) problem is that it leaves the door wide open for trolling and makes Randoms even less attractive.
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I think making random less attractive is generally a good thing. Randoms are strongly discouraged in serious play at EU at least and are more of a "fun game" element.

    Personally I am very much in favor of soft limits where going above the limit will result in medals becoming disabled.

    For Survival, I'd be happy for this to affect credit/xp gain as well, but not so much for normal storylines.
  16. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    By the way, this is the match I mentioned previously.

    Just replace Sentries with X-1s and you get the idea. I've thought about it, and I'm most in favor of the soft cap. I'm thinking a 40% reduction of XP and Credits for the whole team every time the limit is breached.
  17. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Okay. Any violent objections before this is implemented?
  18. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Please define "this". Which idea/combination are you planning?
  19. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Following the inputs above - 40% reduction in XP/Credits gained for all players when any non basic class (Rifleman/Medic) exceeds the limit of 2. Moving this thread to NOTD Discussion.
  20. Arcelia

    Arcelia New Member

    Mmm does this affect Recruit mode too?
    It doesn't seem very fair for this to affect Recruit mode...

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