Let's talk AI

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Lord NiteShade, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Something really needs to get done with the AI, specifically the Alpha minis. Since the early game damage output is heavily carried by them, they have surprisingly poor ai. I know they prioritize distance from team, but not elevation. Because on NA, tactics early game now rely heavily on the fort, this is a common occurrence.
    [attachment=448]

    Minis are technically at the "center" of the team. However, they are on low ground, and very far from the entrance to fort. Because of this, once Demeter spawned, they were cut to shreds. Also, the arms of the fort/armory are notoriously unreliable, as Minis spend more time running back and forth, or becoming increasingly scattered. It goes from bad to worse on Nightmare where they will facetank charging enemies, and kite (poorly) rather than shoot back.
  2. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    On topic, can we adjust the threat value of ai units based on how much dps they deal, whether they have crowbar, flamer, or other weapons, and if there's a way, increase their sense of self-preservation.

    Generally, short ranged weapon wielding ai units should have a lower threat value, low dps units should have a low threat value etc. I.e. Crowbar ogi should not be very aggressive, and should also have a low threat value.

    Except mced units, most ai units should be able to carry out a few basic moves such as charging (not zealot legs but generally pressing the attack to a direction), falling back (in a group, half will fire while the other half will retreat for a distance, rinse and repeat, or if alone, fire and retreat)

    I don't know the mechanics of the game or coding, but I think this can help to preserve some AI units for the bulk of games.
  3. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    Threat Priority on marines and minis is bonkers. Currently, Forward Observer > Flamethrower to the point that even if the Flamethrower is tearing it up with a shotgun 10 feet away, Mutalisks will completely ignore the Flamethrower and aim for squishy and probably inattentive FO.
  4. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Order is most likely still default. So Raynor has higher threat than most/all terran units.

    If I had to guess, its something like this.
    FO=Rifleman
    Assault=Engineer
    PsiOps
    Tech
    Chem=Flamer
    Commando
    Demo
    Pathfinder
    Medic
    Recon=Marksman
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Back in the day and still now, Black Ops will shoot medics and commandos first if several classes are within range initially. They won't swap target once acquired though unless moving/stunned
  6. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    Marksman is higher than Tech. Having randomed Tech in a pub a while back, I was helpless to prevent the muta wave from ignoring me entirely and swarming our poor 800 xp Assassin Marksman.

    ...or was I Flamethrower?
  7. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Then it is truly all over the board.

    Some other fun anomalies include civilians boasting higher threat than classes like techs, demos, or commandos.

    Thors seem to outclass everything ever (probly justified). But given their tankyness thats almost an advantage.

    The actual tanks in easy co seem to have very low threat, I've seen slashers choose AI medics over them.
  8. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    I posted this in my report on Alpha Company scaling, but I'mma throw it here too.

    I managed to solo my way as an SMM in Alpha Company to Cerberus where I died to the non-scaling waves there.

    When Sheng comes back from his glory hole, he's vulnerable and has a sky-high threat priority. As a Marksman I may as well have not even been there. I could run around knifing things on hold fire without getting hit because everything and its grandmother would ignore Tanaka and me to go straight for Sheng.
  9. Ability
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    Ability NOTD Creator

    Apart from Thors, almost all Marines/Minis in NOTD have a similar Combat Target Priority (value 20). Thors are at value 25 (it's just an arbitrary number - higher means higher priority). How SC2 AI then prioritizes targets in area is a question mark. My hypothesis is a combination of threat level (damage done) and distance from target (closer means more aggro?).
  10. Ability
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    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    Back to AI, any ideas on logic check I can use to improve the situation Nite listed above? Search for elevation is one way but may be processor intensive to have too many If-Then-Else checks since the AI is trigger based atm and runs every 2-3 secs.

    Peera, have you seen any good Data based AI we can use?
  11. Ghost
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    Ghost Warden

    I suppose short of having them follow Player 1 (or if dead, Player 2 etc) or having players nominate follow for minis, it would be difficult.
  12. Blaqk
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    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    Ghost, a better idea on that subject would be to divide the minis between the players. If you have 16 minis and 8 players, just assign 2 minis to each player Ogilvy style. Failing the ideal 2:1 ratio, just have the minis prefer higher rating players. If you have 10 minis and 8 marines, then the two highest rated players will have 2 follow them. You can then incur a karma loss if the minis following you die. ;)
  13. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    or use something like the gbuddy. :)
  14. Lord NiteShade
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    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Maybe something to keep them from trying to "center themselves" on the team if an outlier player runs far enough away (like beyond 15 range). Even if one player leaves the team to find charlie, the minis will get "dragged" of out the fort/armory by their own ai.

    Actually, maybe some kind of hold position ai would help. Even when players are stationary the minis ai tends to have them trying to chase ALOT of stray enemies.

    And lastly, they seem to have "perfect vision" of sorts, as if the entire map is revealed to them. They will shoot things with their marksman rifles well before any player can even see it. They should either have vision reduced to playeresque levels, or only get their vision from shared vision through players.
  15. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

  16. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Thinking about it myself, I was pondering if it would be possible to code minis like Sheng's Boys so it's something like "Mear, Zell, and Steve follow Player 1, Sheng, Doris, Tyler follow Player 2" etc.

    I admit the reason I haven't chimed in on this is because I do NOT have a head for programming at all. Hell, just making a script in what my roommate said "Is a piss easy language to program in" to do "One of the most basic things you can do" took me a good two months of hammering away on it. And it still didn't work right.

    Anyway, if the AI Code is something like that, give them something akin to Ivan AI where if they go beyond range 5-6 or so from the marine in question they hustle back.

    But my gut Peasant Logic says that it's probably somewhat easy to code, relatively speaking. It should solve 90% of the problems they have positioning themselves all over the map. Sure, it means 1-2 marines will go follow the SubMM when he runs... but far better than having all 10 of them chilling out in no man's land getting cut apart. Plus side is if you do use the Ivan style AI I tend to see Ivan deal with Elevation pretty easily. He doesn't tend to have a situation where he's sitting on low ground when his player is on high ground.

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